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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Location: Kingston, ON, CA
Audio_Guy wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
What do you personally consider to be the
‘sweet spot’ product (or products) in your
range in terms of maximum performance
per dollar ($), pound (£), or euro (€)? What
sets those products apart?


George Cardas:
Iridium Speaker & Interconnect are far and
away the best performance per dollar—what
sets these cables apart is the fact that we
have made them actual transmission lines,
matching conductor signal propagation to
dielectric velocity. We don’t go to heroics to
reduce dielectric constant with the use of air
dielectrics at this end of the product line, but
they perform and they’re affordable.


Ken, WTF is "dielectric velocity"?


Effect of Dielectric Materials
It turns out that electromagnetic waves cannot propagate very far through a conducting medium before they are either absorbed or reflected. However, electromagnetic waves are able to propagate through transparent dielectric media without difficultly. The speed of electromagnetic waves propagating through a dielectric medium is given by

Image

where 'K' is the dielectric constant of the medium in question, and 'c' the velocity of light in a vacuum. Since 'K>1' for dielectric materials, we conclude that:

The velocity with which electromagnetic waves propagate through a dielectric medium is always less than the velocity with which they propagate through a vacuum.


We suspect that George is talking about lower cost and easy dielectrics vs expensive and well implemented dielectrics.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:15 am 
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Posts: 260
Location: Sooke, BC, CA
Teo Audio wrote:
Audio_Guy wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
What do you personally consider to be the
‘sweet spot’ product (or products) in your
range in terms of maximum performance
per dollar ($), pound (£), or euro (€)? What
sets those products apart?


George Cardas:
Iridium Speaker & Interconnect are far and
away the best performance per dollar—what
sets these cables apart is the fact that we
have made them actual transmission lines,
matching conductor signal propagation to
dielectric velocity. We don’t go to heroics to
reduce dielectric constant with the use of air
dielectrics at this end of the product line, but
they perform and they’re affordable.


Ken, WTF is "dielectric velocity"?


Effect of Dielectric Materials
It turns out that electromagnetic waves cannot propagate very far through a conducting medium before they are either absorbed or reflected. However, electromagnetic waves are able to propagate through transparent dielectric media without difficultly. The speed of electromagnetic waves propagating through a dielectric medium is given by

Image

where 'K' is the dielectric constant of the medium in question, and 'c' the velocity of light in a vacuum. Since 'K>1' for dielectric materials, we conclude that:

The velocity with which electromagnetic waves propagate through a dielectric medium is always less than the velocity with which they propagate through a vacuum.


We suspect that George is talking about lower cost and easy dielectrics vs expensive and well implemented dielectrics.


I must say that was a very neat and concise explanation. Is it possible that dielectric velocity may be of concern for signals in the micro wave band but not in the audio band ? I'm hoping for another clear explanation because if
the effects of "dielectric velocity" are not significant in the audio band, that means George if full of poop and just another foo-miester. Lets hope not.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:41 am 
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Quote:
I recently got 2 pairs of golden reference from a fellow CAM member. Very happy with the results so far.
Great value for very good cables, seeing that I cannot afford the new version.


+1


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:08 am 
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Bang for the buck? PARSEC!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:18 am 
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Audio_Guy wrote:

I must say that was a very neat and concise explanation. Is it possible that dielectric velocity may be of concern for signals in the micro wave band but not in the audio band ? I'm hoping for another clear explanation because if
the effects of "dielectric velocity" are not significant in the audio band, that means George if full of poop and just another foo-miester. Lets hope not.



I got lucky on that one, with a simple web search. Usually the references are more arcane, which does not say that they don't exist, it is just that we are in an area that is little explored... and new or obscure data and obscure methods must be used to try and find the measurement method and data that allows for correlation to what we hear. That is what the methods of 'science' are all about. We can't dismiss the data that we, audio people ...in what is actually and really at the level of millions of people..we as a group hear these things....so we must find the measurement method and data that lays it bare, as well as we can.

The extant methods and formulations are obviously in need of some form of re-analysis and reformulation, as there is no consensus that is arising. This indicates that something fundamental is wrong in the connection between the two. The millions of audio equipment users are not all crazy or wrong, close to zero of them are wrong, is the data point--when looked at without bias.

Saying it is a bunch of mental projections is the hooey and easy way out for those without the capacity to make the attempt to find the new path through this issue. They find the answer within the circle of logic they can reach. Their circle or range is too small for definition, in their case -- to emerge.

The longer a problem is around, the more fundamental the error in the formulation of the question. Not always true but so often true..that this axiom can become a fundamental tool in repairing or altering systems of analysis to the point where they bear relatable and functional fruit.

The ear hears complex harmonics in their peak transient temporal placement and levels, as a complex microsecond to many seconds long FFT analysis, as a set, with zero forms of jitter and the ability to correct for jitter - all at the same time. Analyzed by the most complex auditory signal capturing device known to humanity, ie, flesh based ears, human ones in this case. Also analyzed by the most complex and evolved computer known to humanity. The human brain. No electrically based hardware based device or the given known and used measurement methodologies can even hope to compete with that level of flesh based sophistication. we know that but part of the problem is that some of the more screechy pundits don't seem to cotton to that particular reality. Lack of cranial power tied to the question analysis is part of their problem.

Individuals are more or less capable, ie some can hear it and work it in their brain and some are lesser so -in both ear and cranial capacity. No two are identical, and then that added problem of emotions being in the way of logical thought formation to various levels among the various people involved in the subject. the monkey intrudes into the problem, big time.

Real science in this complex problem and others like it..does not operate the way that pundits on forums act and behave. None of this volatile and infantile and limited view crap intrudes in the scientific equations involved or intrudes in the analysis and formation of action sets for the proposed problems. Basically, these question will never be resolved on forums and the people on the forums will never be the ones tackling them. Doubly retarded, like barking dogs at the end of a chain, barking at ghosts. Ghosts of themselves, and ghosts of others... in a sea of problems they don't know the shape of ...with tools they don't know may apply or not.

And many more pages just like I've written.

Additionally, as problems go...Some of us have, for the most part solved this particular problem... and have moved on to trying to pry a few dollars from the market on this subject, thus have no interest or incentive in sharing the data points that help formulate the proper question.... so the answer can be seen clearly by more people. Some in this area are just banging on a tin can and posing as prophets and trying to leverage a dollar out of whatever pours out of their pot stirring and recipe bustling. With so many prophets in the market square it is difficult to tell which one of them is for real. Not enough easily discernible contrast is emerging to see what is going on--when it comes to the average forum cruising audio person attempting any form of discernment. Many to most are still at the 'throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks' part. Which is part of the noise issue in the discernment department.

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(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Last edited by Teo Audio on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:18 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Cardas cable groupie here.Budget & application details needed to best reply to this one.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:36 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB, CA
Teo Audio wrote:
Audio_Guy wrote:
I must say that was a very neat and concise explanation. Is it possible that dielectric velocity may be of concern for signals in the micro wave band but not in the audio band ? I'm hoping for another clear explanation because if
the effects of "dielectric velocity" are not significant in the audio band, that means George if full of poop and just another foo-miester. Lets hope not.



I got lucky on that one, with a simple web search. Usually the references are more arcane, which does not say that they don't exist, it is just that we are in an area that is little explored... and new or obscure data and obscure methods must be used to try and find the measurement method and data that allows for correlation to what we hear. That is what the methods of 'science' are all about. We can't dismiss the data that we, audio people ...in what is actually and really at the level of millions of people..we as a group hear these things....so we must find the measurement method and data that lays it bare, as well as we can.

The extant methods and formulations are obviously in need of some form of re-analysis and reformulation, as there is no consensus that is arising. This indicates that something fundamental is wrong in the connection between the two. The millions of audio equipment users are not all crazy or wrong, close to zero of them are wrong, is the data point--when looked at without bias.

Saying it is a bunch of mental projections is the hooey and easy way out for those without the capacity to make the attempt to find the new path through this issue. They find the answer within the circle of logic they can reach. Their circle or range is too small for definition, in their case -- to emerge.

The longer a problem is around, the more fundamental the error in the formulation of the question. Not always true but so often true..that this axiom can become a fundamental tool in repairing or altering systems of analysis to the point where they bear relatable and functional fruit.

The ear hears complex harmonics in their peak transient temporal placement and levels, as a complex microsecond to many seconds long FFT analysis, as a set, with zero forms of jitter and the ability to correct for jitter - all at the same time. Analyzed by the most complex auditory signal capturing device known to humanity, ie, flesh based ears, human ones in this case. Also analyzed by the most complex and evolved computer known to humanity. The human brain. No electrically based hardware based device or the given known and used measurement methodologies can even hope to compete with that level of flesh based sophistication. we know that but part of the problem is that some of the more screechy pundits don't seem to cotton to that particular reality. Lack of cranial power tied to the question analysis is part of their problem.

Individuals are more or less capable, ie some can hear it and work it in their brain and some are lesser so -in both ear and cranial capacity. No two are identical, and then that added problem of emotions being in the way of logical thought formation to various levels among the various people involved in the subject. the monkey intrudes into the problem, big time.

Real science in this complex problem and others like it..does not operate the way that pundits on forums act and behave. None of this volatile and infantile and limited view crap intrudes in the scientific equations involved or intrudes in the analysis and formation of action sets for the proposed problems. Basically, these question will never be resolved on forums and the people on the forums will never be the ones tackling them. Doubly retarded, like barking dogs at the end of a chain, barking at ghosts. Ghosts of themselves, and ghosts of others... in a sea of problems they don't know the shape of ...with tools they don't know may apply or not.

And many more pages just like I've written.

Additionally, as problems go...Some of us have, for the most part solved this particular problem... and have moved on to trying to pry a few dollars from the market on this subject, thus and have no interest or incentive in sharing the data points that help formulate the proper question.... so the answer can be seen clearly by more people. Some in this area are just banging on a tin can and posing as prophets and trying to leverage a dollar out of whatever pours out of their pot stirring and recipe bustling. With so many prophets in the market square it is difficult to tell which one of them is for real. Not enough easily discernible contrast is emerging to see what is going on--when it comes to the average forum cruising audio person attempting any form of discernment. Many to most are still at the 'throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks' part. Which is part of the noise issue in the discernment department.

so many words; and yet so little said


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:20 am 
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Location: Kingston, ON, CA
mpublicover wrote:
so many words; and yet so little said



ts;dr

(too short; didn't read)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:39 am 
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Posts: 975
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Kenc wrote:
my vote goes to the old Hexlink 5 / 5C series.

Yup... they were the best secret that Cardas don't want to talk about especially the Golden 5-C. They sounded very organic with well-balanced top and bottom end. They're excellent when using them as a turntable interconnect. The only problem is they're rare on the used markets.
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Ken, we were making so much progress with your short concise answers stick with me on this - focus we are making progress.....I promise.....

If the dielectric constant is indeed a constant then the dielectric constant will not have any LRC characteristics that will effect the overall waveform and just effect the latency of the signal, am I wrong ?

Let's get back to the short and to the point answers, channel the inner communicator!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Audio_Guy wrote:
Ken, we were making so much progress with your short concise answers stick with me on this - focus we are making progress.....I promise.....

If the dielectric constant is indeed a constant then the dielectric constant will not have any LRC characteristics that will effect the overall waveform and just effect the latency of the signal, am I wrong ?

Let's get back to the short and to the point answers, channel the inner communicator!

Since we're being " to the point ", maybe you could start a new thread. The op asked for people who had experience with Cardas cables for a opinion on the best bang for the buck, I don't believe he was looking for a cable debate or a pi**ing contest. Just sayin...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:05 pm 
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tube54 wrote:
Kenc wrote:
my vote goes to the old Hexlink 5 / 5C series.

Yup... they were the best secret that Cardas don't want to talk about especially the Golden 5-C. They sounded very organic with well-balanced top and bottom end. They're excellent when using them as a turntable interconnect. The only problem is they're rare on the used markets.
Image


Yep. Agree completely, not getting rid of mine. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:17 pm 
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Lets remember the topic please. "What Cardas interconnect gives the biggest bang for the buck". :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Sorry Airdronian for the addition,

While I have never met Ken Hotte from Teo Audio, please see the list of patents he has applied for in signal transmission.

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/ken-hotte

Before crapping on his explanations (which you may say are hooey) please list your qualifications so others may make their judgements of you as well. Just want to be fair.

While I may not grasp all of what Ken has to offer, I am pleased that CAM has someone who can offer a lot of explanations on signal transmission/cables to those that can understand while giving me the opportunity to learn at the same time, which is what I have always liked about CAM

Now back to the best Cardas for the buck......


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:32 am 
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jnaudio wrote:
thinking of buying cardas ics which one offers great value for the money


What's your budget?

-- Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:46 pm --

AudiOhm wrote:
The "Clear Beyond Interconnect" is what you need.
http://www.cardas.com/clear_beyond_ic.php
Do not waste your money on any of their lower lines of IC's...

Regards
Ohms


Really? At $1400US a cable? Come one. At those prices the original poster should take the money and put it towards a better amp, processor, room acoustics, etc. When I had my Anthem AVM503D hooked my MCA50, I ran ICAN Pro Audio XLR, I bought at Canada Computers. Think they ran me like $16/pr. They were 22AWG silver coated cooper with gold plated connectors. 100% EMI/RFI shielded. The sound was amazing to my ears. And you could put your ears up to the tweeter in my speakers and not hear a single hiss coming from them. Pretty sure your not going to hear much difference with a $1400+ cable.


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