Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:19 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

How would you start or upgrade?
Beginning to End 70%  70%  [ 30 ]
End to Beginning 19%  19%  [ 8 ]
Digital to Analog 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Analog to Digital 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 43
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 167
Location: Milton, ON, CA
Hi CAM;

We all need cables and wire to connect our systems together. How to do it?

I'm currently assessing the need to upgrade my cables. If I can't afford to replace all the cables at once where do I begin? Which section in the chain will make the biggest difference? USB, Optical, Coaxial, analog? Source, EQ, DAC, preamp, amp?

Where do believe in the chain is most important?

Thanks for chiming in,

Audiois1st

_________________
Digital Front End > Stereo & Multi-Channel > Tubes > B&W & Cerwin Vega Speakers > Acoustically Treated A/V Cave

Check out My Components: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/userprofile.php?user_id=39933


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:15 am
Posts: 64
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
I'd start between the DAC and the pre-amp, then go pre-amp to amplifier.

From there, speaker wire.

Then turn back and look at your USB cable.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:09 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:44 pm
Posts: 6087
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I'm going to assume that cables involve Power Cables as well.

Having just put FURUTECH GTX-D NCF (R) receptacles on my 3 dedicated lines...that is where I would begin if I was doing it all over again!!!

Then it would be Power Cord to Pre-amp, power amps, sources...then IC's and Speaker Cables...

_________________
I Put A Spell On You!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:36 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 7:33 am
Posts: 118
Location: Queen Charlotte, BC, CA
I have been through a 4 year cable quest. There are lots of valid opinions. The following is based on my own experience and does not discount other theories:

Upgrade in the biggest jumps that you can afford, rather than a lot of little jumps - it will be cheaper in the long run and will help avoid a vault full of unused cables. If possible, try before you buy. Read reviews about cables before you buy them and think about whether they will be a good fit. If your system is already bright, do not get cables that are described as bright....etc. If a new cable does not work well in the intended location, try it elsewhere before rejecting it.

Unless there is a known weak point:
Analogue interconnects first: my brands are Lavricable, Morrow 3 & 4, various ETI, DSA Silver Storm, and Audioquest. This is where I do recommend brand names and personally prefer solid core wires, with Eichmann style plugs.
Speaker wire second: Good quality oxygen free wire that is an oversize gauge for the distance you are running. Do not spend extra money on esoteric brands. (I use 10 AWG with very fine strands for 27 foot runs. It improved on 12 AWG with thick strands.)
Power cords third: 14 or bigger AWG to the power amps, preferably shielded. Later on, upgrade the power cords to components that do not gulp as much power.
Digital cables fourth: I only have experience with a digital coax. I upgraded from a decent Sonic Wave to a Belkin Synapse and was surprised at how much better it sounded.
Keep an eye on CAM and other sites and be prepared to change your priorities if a good deal comes along.
Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:02 am
Posts: 692
Location: Barrie, ON, CA
If using a digital front end, I have found best money spent is on the DACs power cable. If starting from nothing I would go power cable on DAC, interconnects, speaker cables, power cable on preamp, power cable on amp.

Basically back to front. I started out front to back when I first was introduced to cables. It is sonically more noticeable, but not necessarily beneficial. I got more detail, but not musicality. Of course I thought the extra detail was pretty cool at the time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 1:19 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
Hmmmm cables, all electrons are equal, but some prefer expensive cables. You have an excellent audio setup in my opinion. My humble honest suggestion is, make a list of what it will cost you to "upgrade" the interconnects, spend that money on holiday with your loved ones. When you come back your system will sound wonderful.
Expensive cables are the snake oil of audio industry. We r humans and we were tough that if we spend a lot of money we are getting value/ quality. Sometimes we r the victims of placebo effect. Now bring the pitch forks and torches...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:54 am
Posts: 403
Location: Markham, ON, CA
Audiois1st wrote:
Hi CAM;

We all need cables and wire to connect our systems together. How to do it?

I'm currently assessing the need to upgrade my cables. If I can't afford to replace all the cables at once where do I begin? Which section in the chain will make the biggest difference? USB, Optical, Coaxial, analog? Source, EQ, DAC, preamp, amp?

Where do believe in the chain is most important?

Thanks for chiming in,

Audiois1st


Don't waste your time here expecting you will get any solid advise. You will get confused even more at the end of the day. It is just like asking how to select a perfect spouse.

It is better talk to your friends whom have a system that sounds better than yours and learn from there.

Good luck.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Eastern Passage, NS, CA
dts-99 wrote:
Audiois1st wrote:
Hi CAM;

We all need cables and wire to connect our systems together. How to do it?

I'm currently assessing the need to upgrade my cables. If I can't afford to replace all the cables at once where do I begin? Which section in the chain will make the biggest difference? USB, Optical, Coaxial, analog? Source, EQ, DAC, preamp, amp?

Where do believe in the chain is most important?

Thanks for chiming in,

Audiois1st


Don't waste your time here expecting you will get any solid advise. You will get confused even more at the end of the day. It is just like asking how to select a perfect spouse.

It is better talk to your friends whom have a system that sounds better than yours and learn from there.

Good luck.


What he said...

_________________
A force de contempler la mer, on fini un jour par la prendre.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 4399
Location: Surrey , BC, CA
as mentioned above here...start with the power cable and outlets........


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:42 pm
Posts: 825
Location: toronto, ON, CA
Agree with power cord first as it helps improve the performance of the component. Most improvements are usually heard on the digital side of things rather than the assumed power hungry boxes. I'd start with the cords on the power conditioner and then whatever digital device you may have, then amps..


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:35 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Wetaskiwin, AB, CA
Bandy wrote:
Hmmmm cables, all electrons are equal, but some prefer expensive cables. You have an excellent audio setup in my opinion. My humble honest suggestion is, make a list of what it will cost you to "upgrade" the interconnects, spend that money on holiday with your loved ones. When you come back your system will sound wonderful.
Expensive cables are the snake oil of audio industry. We r humans and we were tough that if we spend a lot of money we are getting value/ quality. Sometimes we r the victims of placebo effect. Now bring the pitch forks and torches...


+1
I will say that good quality, not necessarily expensive, connectors do make a difference in reducing signal and/or power loss


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:41 pm 
Online
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1050
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
Adriankn wrote:
If using a digital front end, I have found best money spent is on the DACs power cable. If starting from nothing I would go power cable on DAC, interconnects, speaker cables, power cable on preamp, power cable on amp.

Basically back to front. I started out front to back when I first was introduced to cables. It is sonically more noticeable, but not necessarily beneficial. I got more detail, but not musicality. Of course I thought the extra detail was pretty cool at the time.



musicality is the biggest deal.

If the system is not an emotional ride, and you can't wait to turn it on in the morning......something is wrong. It means you ain't there yet.

The trick is to not buy or use anything, equipment wise, that is 'off center'..all due to one part of the soundscape that it (the given item) is vaunted to do really well.

It's like having a bunch of eq's strung one after another, one with the sliders up, the next piece, be it cable or piece of equipment, with the sliders down, then the next with sliders up and the next with sliders down and so on.

Each item that is off center will drag the rest of the system down and cause you to make choices that are also wrong, in order to bring the output into a neutral state. Each eq shift is a darkness or screech that is obscuring real signal.

You want each piece to have it all. Each piece has to be built out of non magnetic internal components and of stable strong non resonant chassis. When many people who are used to inexpensive internal parts and how they sound..hear a neutral sounding piece of gear (or cable.. ahem!), they tend to think it sounds dark. When in fact, it is neutral, musical, detailed, harmonically rich, fast, punchy, balanced, and so on. These things are not necessarily expensive, it just requires going another layer deep in knowledge and determination.

simple, simple, simple, simple. less is more. less internal parts----is more. less complex circuit..is more. less bling..is more.

this is where the observant, learned hearing, and intelligent audiophile ends up at... With very simple systems that have very few pieces that really deliver the musical goods.

the rest of it, is just decades or years of un-learning that needs to take place and stands between you and those immortal moments of deep enjoyment, of near or fully blown ecstasy in music listening. if it ain't getting you off, it isn't doing what it can do, if you had selected and matched it correctly. Careful and slow, is the way to go.


Human hearing has a 'cueing' system, where it loads pre known or learned sound aspects into the heard items or sounds, so it can shape them in the mind fast enough to understand language, while it flows. the human biological function in hearing actually masks heard sound with old files of previously heard sounds so decoding can take place in real time. This is why it takes time to get past accents and learn new languages or new dialects, or..in audiophile terms..new gear's revealing nature.

Learning to defeat that so one can hear the new sound...unencumbered... is the hardest part to get to. This learning of the new brings about the part where we become dissatisfied with the new gear and finally hear it's flaws and then the flaws become too much to deal with.

If the item, the cable, or the gear is good enough, that day never comes. It just gets good and stays good and we get lost in the emotion of the music. always.

Try to get there.

We each learn at different speeds and end up at different levels as we each have different neural capacities and we each have different levels of capacity in mind and hearing. ear-brain combinations can be smart or not so smart. And it does not specifically correlate to eloquence in writing or science or math or what not... as each component of the mind is individual. you can have a very well written person on a forum who's system sucks in musicality or a poor writer who has smart hearing and has a wonderful and musical system. Or any other combination.

A big hint is that it is not an intellectual enterprise in analysis. It is a wholly relaxed emotional one, where the critical aspects shut down, and we listen openly and mentally quietly. Endorphins are critical to learning and building new neural pathways. To become more intelligent, hearing and 'music listening-wise'. It takes time, it is a long term learning affair. Like any other learning of a skill.

and add in that music sits in the same part of the brain as emotional aspects of sex. So we get to the heated and hated forum wars, as it is part and parcel of the core of the whole shebang.

This is why it is sometimes difficult to really take another person's advice about some given piece of gear or cable.

In our case, with the liquid metal cables, we get reports back of the same cable being found to be dark and undetailed and the next person says the exact opposite. Day in and day out, the same thing happens.

The only thing we do know, is that liquid metal does work completely differently than wire, in electromagnetic terms, and is the biggest change in signal transfer in over 100 years.

When we apply it to this varied mess, we get these strange results, where one person is totally dismissive... and the next is totally ecstatic about what they hear.

It is a potent lesson about the world of audiophiles and how humans hear, and the given current state of audio gear.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:18 pm
Posts: 283
Location: Sooke, BC, CA
This is a non-issue there are far more effective ways to spend your "Audio" budget and time. If a cable sounds different there is something wrong with it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:15 am 
Online
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1050
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
I agree with you in principle.

But this is what happens when something new shows up. Something that shows the weaknesses of gear and it's execution, and the way that some people have learned to listen. It is a complex equation and we take hearing for granted, in most ways, without thinking on how exactly it works.

For example, Nordic Norm here (forum member), rebuilds his own gear. He is intimately familiar with what is going on inside the equipment, inch by inch of circuit board, wire, and individual component and individual part coloration, in time smear added screech...and occlusion of signal. IIRC, he also plays instruments? Ie deeply familiar with all aspects of music reproduction from all directions and ways.

He understands the extra level of overview required, that I am speaking about. He 'gets it'... the extra level of overview that moves one closer to getting one off the crazy circular ride.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Last edited by Teo Audio on Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:15 am
Posts: 64
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
dcrossle wrote:
my brands are Lavricable, Morrow 3 & 4, various ETI, DSA Silver Storm, and Audioquest.


Have you tried Teo's liquid cables? I gave them a try earlier this year and now own two sets - amazing.

Terrific thread about them over here on Audiogon.

Voodoo Funk wrote:
Having just put FURUTECH GTX-D NCF (R) receptacles on my 3 dedicated lines...that is where I would begin if I was doing it all over again!!!


That good eh - wow. I should pull the trigger. I have the gold Furutech receptacles but have been reading great things about these receptacles. Did you go with the NCF covers too?

And I would totally agree about the power side of things - good cables do make a difference. I tried out a number of cables and settled on the AC series by PS Audio. Amazing value and can be had for less than half retail on CAM / USAudioMart / Audiogon.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bolly, bwjr66, darcman and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group