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 Post subject: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:38 pm 
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I am wondering if one of you can explain this, as I am not sure what exactly that means.

On a power conditioner, it reads maximum total output 120 VAC and 8.4 AMP, what do these numbers mean?
I was under the impression that you multiply 120 by 8.4 and that gives you 1008 watts of output. Which means I can plug in say, two components one draws total current of 600 watts and the other 350 watts, as long as the total current drawn is not more then 1008 watts which is the output capacity of the power conditioner.
Am I right?



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Kal


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:17 am 
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Sounds correct to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:42 am 
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Location: Dodge City, NB, CA
naimkid wrote:
I am wondering if one of you can explain this, as I am not sure what exactly that means.

On a power conditioner, it reads maximum total output 120 VAC and 8.4 AMP, what do these numbers mean?
I was under the impression that you multiply 120 by 8.4 and that gives you 1008 watts of output. Which means I can plug in say, two components one draws total current of 600 watts and the other 350 watts, as long as the total current drawn is not more then 1008 watts which is the output capacity of the power conditioner.
Am I right?



Cheers.

Kal

Power ( watts )= amps times volts
So you can't have a " current " of 600 watts if you are using the correct terms.
It would be a current draw of 5 amps if you have a voltage of 120 available to work with.
5 amps times 120 volts equals a 600 watt load.

Ken.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:33 am 
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The bottom line is your conditioner's amperage load should not be lower than the total load plugged in, and a margin of 10 to 15 percent below the rating is a good idea. Rated for 8 amps, try to load it with only 7.2 etc. Examine the back panel of your device and look for amp rating. If it is only in watts, devide the watts by 120v to find amps.
The reason to leave this margin is explained further below.

120v is the system design factor. You could be in another country at 100v, 240v. Etc. Devices are built for local market voltage rate.
Amps is the rate of flow of power, hence the word current. All the parts in your conditioner device are designed as a unit to handle this rate of flow. The weakest link is the weakest link, the reset breaker is there to protect the weakest link.

Think of it this way.
Watts is the conversion rate of the current from electrical energy, to sound and heat energy.

If your amplifier was a lightbulb, 100watt, designed for 120volts, it has a steady current flow of .83 amps - which is being coverted to a small percentage of light, and a high percentage of heat.

An overage of current flow is what trips a breaker in your house panel, or in the case of your power conditioner, if it has a reset button. This electrical flow, when running very close to the maximum rating of your conditioner (amps) can be affected by 2 other factors. If your hydro company's voltage varies by a few volts daily, say 114v on the low side and 124volts on the high side, the electrical equation changes the limits of current flow in amps. A perfect breaker operating at 100% of perfect voltage and current flow will trip when the equation varies by voltage swings.

The other factor is a lesser obvious thing called 'power factor' which is a defination of a device's total efficacy of converting current flow to useful energy (sound). Again, if an amplifier has .95 power factor, it is wasting a small amount of watts. This can marginally affect the breaker trip acuracy. Poor power factor is usually an expression of waste heat.
This is not usually indicated on audio equipment. But if you loaded your conditioner to 100% of its rating with components with low PF, it could cause tripping of the reset breaker.

Simply under load it a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:20 am 
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Here's a simple explanation, this amps needs more VA then watts,(384 VA versus 290watts) .
Reactive power VA Volts/Amps draws more juice compare to plain resistive watts.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:19 am 
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Location: Etobicoke, ON, CA
You really don't need a power conditioner - All marketing! - Today's modern amps & other gear have sophisticated regulated power supplies - as well, your power company ( Toronto Hydro ) works very hard to keep the supplies clean - high penalties!

but I am sure there will be many who believe the hype and defend their use - there are better things to spend your hard earn dollars
on
good listening
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Location: Markham, ON, CA
alladione wrote:
You really don't need a power conditioner - All marketing! - Today's modern amps & other gear have sophisticated regulated power supplies - as well, your power company ( Toronto Hydro ) works very hard to keep the supplies clean - high penalties!

but I am sure there will be many who believe the hype and defend their use - there are better things to spend your hard earn dollars
on
good listening
Cheers


I am sitting here listening to my upstairs system and, in the last half hour or so, I have seen line input voltage run from 126 to 119.6 volts. Without a conditioner I had an ambient buzz, noise, in the background. Since I installed the conditioner, I have seen that noise disappear. Also, by having all systems on a balanced (conditioned) circuit, these spikes and sags in voltage are eliminated for all equipment...this saves a lot of wear and tear. And, as major spikes are always a potential, how much is your system worth? Better to fry the conditioner than your mono blocks!

I am ex-Hydro and Bell and can tell you that there is a LOT of variance in current arriving at our homes. Let alone what happens when your wife or daughter (or son I guess) turns on the hair dryer while somebody else is warming up a coffee in the microwave..... If conditioners were not important they would not be standard fare in every medium/large telecom system installed in the world....it makes a difference even if you cannot hear anything.....

The arguments for/against power conditioners are much like the arguments for/against snow tires. Some believe they are critical, others feel they are superfluous; and ya, I have snow tires on all 4 cars.... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:24 pm 
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brownslane wrote:

I am ex-Hydro and Bell and can tell you that there is a LOT of variance in current arriving at our homes. Let alone what happens when your wife or daughter (or son I guess) turns on the hair dryer while somebody else is warming up a coffee in the microwave..


Would you be meaning varience in voltage here? Current varies by the draw of item being used in the home, not supplied so to speak. Dirty power though, hugely supplied from outside the home. To which I'd agree varies a LOT....

-- 14 May 2017 15:31 --

alladione wrote:
You really don't need a power conditioner - All marketing!


And no one in audio ever fell for marketing!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:40 pm 
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revoxb77 wrote:
Here's a simple explanation, this amps needs more VA then watts,(384 VA versus 290watts) .
Reactive power VA Volts/Amps draws more juice compare to plain resistive watts.



And this kids, ...further explains power factor. In the instance given, not very good power factor either..

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Location: Athabasca, AB, CA
I would never be without my two Torus.
A few yrs back I owned 4 F-113's,two were in front and two in the back.
I had the one Torus in the front running my 28's+7 SST and the other Torus in back doing 7bsst monos and projector,BRP,BDP's ect.
The other two Jl's couldn't reach the other Torus in back.
We had a thunder storm here and long story short,the two f-113's connected to the Torus in front were unharmed.
The two F-113s in back were wall plugged and ....Toast.
All other digital components were good also as they were connected to the Torus.
Even my old DLP tv which had a bulb($280.00)replacement would always go thru basically a bulb a yr.
Installed a rack mount Surgex to it and never went thru bulbs after that.
I've bought and sold a bit of audio gear but the Torus(s) will always be the foundation of my system.


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:23 pm 
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interesting comments, I challenge "Saskite" to put a multimeter on the 60 volts rails of his power amp regulated supply rails just after the approx 110,000 microfarad capacitors or more and then tell me if there were a difference in voltage.

these companies prey upon the fact most people do not understand modern sophisticated regulated power supplies of power amps.
do you think Nelson Pass would design an amp with JUST a transformer and full wave rectifier

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Wow, some great informative responses, many many Thanks to all those who took the time to read and reply.

How do you select a good power conditioner? My idea of a good power conditioner would be the one which creates no hum, no noise of any kind, and filters your power for your components to a point where it makes a very clear audible difference in overall sound.

So how do you find a good power conditioner, how do you "filter out" the bad ones from the good?


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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 7:39 pm 
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alladione wrote:
interesting comments, I challenge "Saskite" to put a multimeter on the 60 volts rails of his power amp regulated supply rails just after the approx 110,000 microfarad capacitors or more and then tell me if there were a difference in voltage.

these companies prey upon the fact most people do not understand modern sophisticated regulated power supplies of power amps.
do you think Nelson Pass would design an amp with JUST a transformer and full wave rectifier

cheers

Not sure what you are attacking here...perhaps review again and get back to us. Keep in mind the thread is answering Naim's question on the specs. Not passing judgement on choices.
I am pretty resistant to a lot of audio hogwash. But 40 years in electrical/electronics/working for the 2 largest largest LED lighting companies in North America& the world gives me a descent understanding on what happens in the supply and consumption of electricty in devices.. All power supplies have there limits, no matter who designed them. And not all hydro customers are treated equal (to quality electricity) I 've commissioned enough power studies to distrust both supply and quality on both ends of product build and power input quality. If Naimkid wants one, that is for him to decide.
Btw, I :lol: at your marketing comment cause it was funny, and i was not disagreeing. :?

-- 14 May 2017 21:52 --

naimkid wrote:
Wow, some great informative responses, many many Thanks to all those who took the time to read and reply.

How do you select a good power conditioner? My idea of a good power conditioner would be the one which creates no hum, no noise of any kind, and filters your power for your components to a point where it makes a very clear audible difference in overall sound.

So how do you find a good power conditioner, how do you "filter out" the bad ones from the good?


I searched the CAM forums using 'best power conditioner'. There are 90 pages of posts on the subject.
Like cables and such, the perfect answer is going to be unclear for a long time. i suggest you review the forum archive for some of the product names offered, and the reasons they are offered. see if you come to a conclusion. And as offered up by another member, try to confirm your need for one first.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:37 am 
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naimkid wrote:
Wow, some great informative responses, many many Thanks to all those who took the time to read and reply.

How do you select a good power conditioner? My idea of a good power conditioner would be the one which creates no hum, no noise of any kind, and filters your power for your components to a point where it makes a very clear audible difference in overall sound.

So how do you find a good power conditioner, how do you "filter out" the bad ones from the good?


There are plenty of misconceptions about power 'filters' or 'conditioners'. For the sake of this conversation I will just use the term filter.

I'll approach the matter from my interaction with customer questions and concerns I have received over the years.

1. Concern: "I tried a power filter and it killed my soundstage". There are 2 basic types of filters. Balanced (transformer) and Non Balanced (capacitor). Balanced filters are current limiting and more expensive. This means that mid to high current amplifiers will perform below expectations if plugged into this type of filter. There are some larger balanced filters that can handle the current requirements but there is a compromise. Sadly consumers are being sold smaller balanced filters and not being advised of the limitations. They are ideal for low voltage devices, especially digital gear that generate plenty of noise that interfere with other components. Yes, most power noise issues are generated in our own homes. More on that later. Non balanced capacitor filters are non current limiting and perfect for amplifiers. They also do a good job on all other gear. I always recommend starting with capacitance based filtering and adding on a balanced filter later. If you can, add the balanced to the non balanced and get the pre filtering advantage of the first filter.

2. Misconceptions: I get calls about filtering for hum or buzzing from speakers. These noises are rarely caused by noise on the power line. Top causes are power cords touching or too close to interconnects, ground loop and the odd loose interconnect. I always ask, "Did you change or move equipment lately?" and the answer is always yes.

3. Misconceptions Part 2: Hum or buzzing from the equipment. Again, regular filtering will not solve this problem. Transformer hum is caused by a failing transformer (rare) but DC Offset is the major culprit there. A specific DC offset filter is the solution. Due to the exponential growth of electronic devices in the home, DC offset is a very common problem these days.

4. Voltage regulators: In Canada and the US, in most areas, the power grid is stable. Voltage regulators actually introduce noise into the circuit and therefore can cause more degradation in equipment performance than they solve. Now, if you have unreliable voltage supply, it's a necessary evil.

5. How much filtering do I need/should I spend: In my experience not that much (of course we all judge $ differently) and there are some accessibly priced filters on the market that will deliver a decent improvement in sonics. There are folks in dense metropolitan areas like Manhattan apartment buildings that need 10x what a rural customer would need but in the end, it is about what is in your home in most cases.

6. It's all marketing bulls**t: Yes it is. So be a good drone and get a filter. Seriously though, noise on a power line is measurable. When I was a kid, whenever my father used the electrical carving knife at Christmas, the TV would go fuzzy. You could hear and see the effect of noise on the TV. Now a cool story. I was speaking with a customer last year and he was curious about filters. I went through the explanations and he said he would think it over. Turned out his daughter was a scientist at CERN in Switzerland. He mentioned filtering to her and it she was a strong advocate for power line filtering. CERN uses the world's largest and most complex scientific instruments to study the basic constituents of matter. They had great difficulty calibrating and getting proper reading on their equipment so they formed a team to perform root cause analysis on the problem. The culprit was power line noise. In order of noise generation they shared the following: 1. Plasma monitors, 2. LED/LCD monitors, 3. CFL/LED lamps, 4. Wall wart power supplies, 5. Dimmer switches and 5. Motors (refrigerator, water heaters, air conditioners etc.). She also mentioned that Plasma TV's were so bad, your neighbours Plasma TV's will spread noise to the entire neighbourhood.

7. The 'other' noise: RF interference. It's everywhere and it is a problem. Just for fun, place your modem or router near your phono stage interconnects. Filtering can't stop that noise in this specific case since it's after the power supply but it demonstrates the interference quite easily on electrical devices.

8. Power bars and surge protectors: A surprisingly high number of consumers have indicated that they have filtering in their 'power bar' when in fact it is not a filter at all. I'm not claiming that manufacturers are misleading the public here but a good quality power bar will certainly outperform a Best Buy power bar but all it is doing is providing better connectors and wiring, not filtering. Surge protection can be built into a filter or power bar. Not every filter or power bar will have this feature. Add on surge protectors are available. Common question: how do I know the surge protector is working? If you have a tripped breaker on that circuit and it won't reset, the surge protector did it's job and needs to be replaced.

9. Dedicated circuit: I highly recommend it. The main advantage is that the line is not interrupted along the way by several $0.25 receptacles. They act like roundabouts on a major highway. Does it help with power line noise? No but it is a good upgrade. I also recommend Hubble, Furutech or equivalent receptacles. Great bang for the buck. No help on the filtering side though.

10. How long do filters last? The same as any simple electronic device depending on the quality of the components.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Conditioner
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:48 am 
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Mystic Audio wrote:
naimkid wrote:
I also recommend Hubble, Furutech or equivalent receptacles. Great bang for the buck. No help on the filtering side though.


Speaking of receptacles, I just bought a new house, which is about 40 years old, and am in the process of slowly replacing all receptacles and light switches in the house.

Where can I buy Hubbell receptacles in bulk, at a good price? I just need good quality for most of the house, and for where my system is connected, I'll splurge on something a bit more high end. Any specific models you guys would recommend? Unfortunately, I have no plans at the moment to install a dedicated 20A line, but if I do, what would the approx cost be?


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