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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Teo Audio wrote:
By using your ears, of course. Vote with your ears. and buy or not buy. Since we each have different hearing abilities, qualities and overall intelligence (ear-q and iq), ie complex neurological parameters, etc... we cannot use electrical measurements to decide what is real to the ear and what is not.

Trust your ears?
You cannot trust your ears. Like all of our senses your ears can be fooled.
And fooled very easily.
The fact that we can perceive a 3D soundstage from 2 speakers is all the proof you need to see that our ears are easily fooled.

Teo Audio wrote:
Bass fishing boats, make-up, clothing, carpet choices, alcohol....you name it. Our hearing is still outside of the capacity of measurements to define, likened to that of the brain itself, tied to the brain and tied to the physicality of the ear-brain... all still totally outside of the realm of science to measure and define.

these are known realities.


The know reality is that our hearing is measurable.
Even our perception of sound is measurable.
There is an entire field of science dedicated to this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
Quote:
Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including noise, speech and music).



Every sound that arrives at your eardrum is converted (lossy) to electrical impulses which are process in the brain. Not every signal is processed as the stream is far to large and is continually sampled.
The brain takes these signals and decodes their meaning based on past experiences.
These past experiences are used by your brain to determine the nature, the importance, and the context of the signal.

This is not an infallible process that can be trusted 100%.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:16 pm 
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lasker98 wrote:
So let's recap; we have first hand user reports of people with positive results from using the products and on the other side we have people with no first hand experience that feel compelled to post their useless comments?
Why is this such a common theme in topics like this? What would be in someone's head to post a negative comment about something they have zero experience with? Don't they realize their post(s) have zero relevance? I'm sure the same people would never consider posting on a thread about Martin Logan speakers, for example, saying how Martin Logan speakers are overpriced snake oil, yet they have zero first hand experience with Martin Logan speakers. Yet threads like this they're more than happy to jump right in, first hand experience be damned.
I guess on the other hand we should all be glad we have so many people looking out for their fellow man.




some do tho....


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:13 pm 
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lasker98 wrote:
So let's recap; we have first hand user reports of people with positive results from using the products and on the other side we have people with no first hand experience that feel compelled to post their useless comments?
Why is this such a common theme in topics like this? What would be in someone's head to post a negative comment about something they have zero experience with? Don't they realize their post(s) have zero relevance? I'm sure the same people would never consider posting on a thread about Martin Logan speakers, for example, saying how Martin Logan speakers are overpriced snake oil, yet they have zero first hand experience with Martin Logan speakers. Yet threads like this they're more than happy to jump right in, first hand experience be damned.
I guess on the other hand we should all be glad we have so many people looking out for their fellow man.


It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly. I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Jared Rachwalski wrote:
... Trust your ears? You cannot trust your ears. Like all of our senses your ears can be fooled. And fooled very easily. The fact that we can perceive a 3D soundstage from 2 speakers is all the proof you need to see that our ears are easily fooled.

... The know reality is that our hearing is measurable. Even our perception of sound is measurable.
There is an entire field of science dedicated to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including noise, speech and music).

... Every sound that arrives at your eardrum is converted (lossy) to electrical impulses which are process in the brain. Not every signal is processed as the stream is far to large and is continually sampled. The brain takes these signals and decodes their meaning based on past experiences. These past experiences are used by your brain to determine the nature, the importance, and the context of the signal.

This is not an infallible process that can be trusted 100%.

Very nicely stated! :D
Thank-you, for taking the time to present this most 'Informative' post.

analogluvr wrote:
... It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly.
I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…

That is an excellent and very, 'apropos' Analogy.

And just think...
You don't even have to be a "t h e o r e t i c a l" physicist -- To understand it!

theoretical
.
synonyms: hypothetical, abstract, conjectural, academic, suppositional, speculative,
notional, postulatory, what-if, assumed, presumed, untested, unproven, unsubstantiated.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:09 am 
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Quote:
It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly. I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…


So it's easier for you to accept that someone like Jack Bybee has made the leap from his work as a quantum physicist with the U.S. military, to deciding to make his life's work the setting up of a company to sell products with no value (snake oil) to a gullible public. He's managed to pull this off for years, even finding OEM's to fall for his nefarious plot. And just to show how devious he truly is, he decides to provide a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee. I'm starting to see your point. This man must be an evil genius to pull something like this off.
But you're unable to think that maybe, just maybe, there could be something to this? Maybe there is actually something in the universe you're not aware of or don't understand completely? Even in the face of all the evidence? All I can say is I can't even comprehend living in a world like that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:31 am 
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:D How will we ever evolve if we never ask "what if?" I try to keep an open mind. Even if I don't understand it :lol: Life's just too short to get bent out of shape about it. Happy Fathers day everyone, cheer, lloyd


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:02 am 
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lasker98 wrote:
Quote:
It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly. I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…


So it's easier for you to accept that someone like Jack Bybee has made the leap from his work as a quantum physicist with the U.S. military, to deciding to make his life's work the setting up of a company to sell products with no value (snake oil) to a gullible public. He's managed to pull this off for years, even finding OEM's to fall for his nefarious plot. And just to show how devious he truly is, he decides to provide a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee. I'm starting to see your point. This man must be an evil genius to pull something like this off.
But you're unable to think that maybe, just maybe, there could be something to this? Maybe there is actually something in the universe you're not aware of or don't understand completely? Even in the face of all the evidence? All I can say is I can't even comprehend living in a world like that.


All the evidence? I have seen no evidence to confirm these "things" make an audible difference.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:11 am 
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"I need an old physicist and and a young physicist."

"The Power of Dogma compels you!"

"The Power of Dogma compels you!"

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:40 am 
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chantsdemaldoror wrote:
lasker98 wrote:
Quote:
It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly. I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…


So it's easier for you to accept that someone like Jack Bybee has made the leap from his work as a quantum physicist with the U.S. military, to deciding to make his life's work the setting up of a company to sell products with no value (snake oil) to a gullible public. He's managed to pull this off for years, even finding OEM's to fall for his nefarious plot. And just to show how devious he truly is, he decides to provide a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee. I'm starting to see your point. This man must be an evil genius to pull something like this off.
But you're unable to think that maybe, just maybe, there could be something to this? Maybe there is actually something in the universe you're not aware of or don't understand completely? Even in the face of all the evidence? All I can say is I can't even comprehend living in a world like that.


All the evidence? I have seen no evidence to confirm these "things" make an audible difference.


why would they not make an audible difference? when used they are altering the signal, no? this I am referring to the quantum purifiers.

the original thread topic was referring to the quantum signal enhancer - the chunk of black acrylic which has now been upgraded to the 4x6 piece of stained walnut.
personally no experience but was informed using copper plate would yield the same result. tried it and nada...had components sitting on copper sheets!

as for the quantum purifiers was offered to try the speaker bullit kit. these ...

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now according to the online description, "they operate on the quantum mechanical level to regulate the flow of electrons that make up the signal " and "strip away excess energy and dissipate it as heat." kinda sounds like a resistor?!

now how many of us have yoinked the +jumper plate on a set of bi-wire speakers and tossed in a resistor to tame a tweet? the audible difference can be subtle to significant.

but why pos and neg in the kit?

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my findings...take em as you will.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:42 am 
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Jared, these are just general notes to everyone, no specific intent. :)

Jared Rachwalski wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
By using your ears, of course. Vote with your ears. and buy or not buy. Since we each have different hearing abilities, qualities and overall intelligence (ear-q and iq), ie complex neurological parameters, etc... we cannot use electrical measurements to decide what is real to the ear and what is not.

Trust your ears?
You cannot trust your ears. Like all of our senses your ears can be fooled.
And fooled very easily.
The fact that we can perceive a 3D soundstage from 2 speakers is all the proof you need to see that our ears are easily fooled.

Teo Audio wrote:
Bass fishing boats, make-up, clothing, carpet choices, alcohol....you name it. Our hearing is still outside of the capacity of measurements to define, likened to that of the brain itself, tied to the brain and tied to the physicality of the ear-brain... all still totally outside of the realm of science to measure and define.

these are known realities.


The know reality is that our hearing is measurable.
Even our perception of sound is measurable.
There is an entire field of science dedicated to this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics
Quote:
Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including noise, speech and music).



Every sound that arrives at your eardrum is converted (lossy) to electrical impulses which are process in the brain. Not every signal is processed as the stream is far to large and is continually sampled.
The brain takes these signals and decodes their meaning based on past experiences.
These past experiences are used by your brain to determine the nature, the importance, and the context of the signal.

This is not an infallible process that can be trusted 100%.


Neurologically, the brain and how it operates, and what human hearing is, both physically and neurologically... are all still outside of measurement and definition limits.


The Human Brain Can Create Structures in Up to 11 Dimensions
"We found a world that we had never imagined."

Quote:
The team used algebraic topology, a branch of mathematics used to describe the properties of objects and spaces regardless of how they change shape. They found that groups of neurons connect into 'cliques', and that the number of neurons in a clique would lead to its size as a high-dimensional geometric object.

"We found a world that we had never imagined," says lead researcher, neuroscientist Henry Markram from the EPFL institute in Switzerland.

"There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to 11 dimensions."

Just to be clear - this isn't how you'd think of spatial dimensions (our Universe has three spatial dimensions plus one time dimension), instead it refers to how the researchers have looked at the neuron cliques to determine how connected they are.

"Networks are often analysed in terms of groups of nodes that are all-to-all connected, known as cliques. The number of neurons in a clique determines its size, or more formally, its dimension," the researchers explain in the paper.

Human brains are estimated to have a staggering 86 billion neurons, with multiple connections from each cell webbing in every possible direction, forming the vast cellular network that somehow makes us capable of thought and consciousness.


Quote:
With such a huge number of connections to work with, it's no wonder we still don't have a thorough understanding of how the brain's neural network operates. But the new mathematical framework built by the team takes us one step closer to one day having a digital brain model.



apparently verified with tests on real brain tissue.

Quote:
After developing their mathematical framework and testing it on some virtual stimuli, the team also confirmed their results on real brain tissue in rats.


And more.

Since we talk neurology, we also talk hearing function, and the complexity of hearing function. Nor do we have a clear understanding of how the ear works with complex signals. Nor do we have a clear view on what the mechanisms of the ear actually do.

And psychology is a crap estimation science, where we throw darts at a board and make guesses and sometimes follow through on them as if they are somehow factual. It has no definitive basis. Psychology is almost as bad as phrenology, the measuring of people's skulls and assigning psychological factors to such. Psychology is dangerously close to crap science and one has to be extremely careful in applying it to anything.

Realistically, within the realm of science and logic and proofs, I can call bull**** on what passes for psycho-acoustics--as somehow defining what audiophiles hear --I can call it a lie, or Misguided and incomplete, at best. And be correct in doing so.

To add, hearing is as different as learning skills and intelligence, and we have a scale, due to these known differences. Some people can win marathons and some can't get across a room.

The same goes for hearing. These are known accepted things in the world of science and reality and are not speculative.

Thus, reality and science...can drive a bus, sideways, no less..through the argument that these small effects on the sound.. that audiophiles say they hear (and find desirable!).....are somehow pseudo- science, and snake oil.

-- 17 Jun 2017 12:53 --

To be clear,

I'm not defending Jack's devices as a thing I think people should by. No not at all.

I'm after ignorance projected as factual science. I'm after incomplete understandings being projected as science and reality that others must follow as religion and dogma.

We do not know the most fundamental aspects of reality, we don't know squat about the nature of reality, never mind what the human mind is or how it operates, and that extends to the human ear and neurological aspects.

There are no facts there is only theory, and any scientist at any level at any university, institute, or top reach facility would very much distance themselves from you.... if you started talking about 'facts'.

nothing is settled, the brain is ridiculously complex, we don't understand it... and hearing is better than any measurement and instrument method of measurement... also better than the given the brain behind the measurements.

That is what science DOES know.

The end.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:09 am 
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lasker98 wrote:
Quote:
It's kind of like if somebody told me a DeLorean could fly. I don't have to actually drive one to know that it's nonsense…


So it's easier for you to accept that someone like Jack Bybee has made the leap from his work as a quantum physicist with the U.S. military, to deciding to make his life's work the setting up of a company to sell products with no value (snake oil) to a gullible public. He's managed to pull this off for years, even finding OEM's to fall for his nefarious plot. And just to show how devious he truly is, he decides to provide a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee. I'm starting to see your point. This man must be an evil genius to pull something like this off.
But you're unable to think that maybe, just maybe, there could be something to this? Maybe there is actually something in the universe you're not aware of or don't understand completely? Even in the face of all the evidence? All I can say is I can't even comprehend living in a world like that.

Yup I believe he's been pulling it off for years. As well as pretty much most of the cable industry
And I am able to think there are things in the universe that I don't know about but this isn't one of them, sorry.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:13 am 
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Some test results were posted here...dated but some factual evidence is eventually given.

happy reading!

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everythi ... lysis.html


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:18 am 
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And teo if hearing is more accurate and better than measurements then why are people not able to pick the equipment in double blind test ? And we are talking about equipment that is slightly measurably different but people are not able to pick them out?
If what you are saying is true that should be an absolute breeze


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:05 am 
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From my education, work and life experience, my view or bias is that human hearing is a fallible sense and that our hearing thresholds change throughout the day - thus, we should not think of our ears as being akin to a Bruel and Kjaer laboratory measurement microphone for precision or repeat-ability of measurements.

Thus, I have come up with my own type of "baloney detection kit" (a phrase I borrowed from the late Carl Sagan) for audio tweaks knowing the fallibility of human hearing;

1) Tweak's benefit can't be scientifically measured plus it is difficult to perceive and you/others are not sure you can hear its benefit = this is just a hearing threshold shift that you/others perceive as the change and not the tweak itself.

2) Supporters of tweak are vehemently against blind or double blind test = "dog in the race", person has money invested in tweak and needs to save face/person is a dealer of said tweak and potential for huge profit margins if people just believe they work without question.

3) Tweak has measured benefits that are scientifically verified (ie. using a respected industry standuard piece of lab equipment such as the; Audio Precision analyzer, Bruel & Kjear microphones, etc.) but you/others can't hear its effect - this may be a genuine limitation of audio system or limitation of ears of listening group. The tweak also may not be very beneficial in a practical sense and money will be better spent on things (Musician Earplugs, vinyl or digital downloads, tickets to live music, etc.). I personally avoid this tweak but am hesitant to call it 100 percent snake oil.

4) Tweak is excessively hyped using marketing buzz words such as "night and day", "quantum", "limits of audibility", "secret", "developed for the military", "now made available to the public for the first time" and notably devoid of any scientific measurements to backup these outrageous claims or the designer has dubious credentials.

5) Tweak has a bling factor as its main feature (example being coffee can exhausts or picnic table spoilers for cars - cable lifters for audio)

6) Points 1) - 5) + tweak is excessively priced for what you get - walk away quickly and listen to what rational mind is telling you!


Last edited by Greg_567 on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:19 am 
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lasker98 wrote:
... So it's easier for you to accept that someone like Jack Bybee has made the leap from his work as a quantum physicist with the U.S. military...

@lasker98...

Question:
What makes you think that Jack 'actually' ever worked as a "*Quantum Physicist" ??? (*Your words... NOT Mine).
Also, if he is such a 'Learned' person... Don't you think that he would perhaps list his 'Advanced' Academic Degrees
after his name?

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/f ... rs.329840/
"He sounds like an interesting guy. Where can I find some of his academic papers on superconductors? He seems to be an authority. I can't find anything on Google Scholar, Microsoft Academic Research, SSRN, or Science Direct - for Jack or John Bybee. I even sicced Copernic at it and it couldn't find anything. He was a professor at Stanford, right? "

"If he was a Stanford Professor, he should be published -- It's part of the job. Heck, you need to be published to become a professor. It doesn't matter if you are working on top secret projects, the university expects your name in journals.

I've worked (peripherally) on "top secret" projects in Universities. The Research isn't Classified but the applications, and sometimes the results, are. The research is *always* published. It's really strange that nothing shows up in the Indexes. My uncle's obscure thermodynamics research from the 60's shows up, as does my coworker's classified research for the navy in the 80's...

His name also doesn't show up in the Stanford Physics Department Faculty List:
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/physics/hi ... -hist.html "
________


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