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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:29 am 
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Bandy wrote:
Actually, Ohm's Law does describe "everything" electrical. Perhaps what you meant to say is that it does not describe anything non-electrical? Like emotions, feelings, beliefs?
Sure, and Newton's Laws describes everything physical in the Universe.

I only wish the Universe and electronics were that simple and tidy...

https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest ... ic-devices

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:42 am 
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Over 33 pages, this thread has provided good examples of the two main positions on the issue of cables, and the two subgroups within each.

The main positions :

A) They make a difference.
B) They don't make a difference.

The subgroups:

A1) They should make a difference but I haven't tried them.
A2) They make a difference and I've tried them and heard it.

B1) Opposite of A1.
B2) Opposite of A2.

A very human aspect of the polarization on this issue is that those who hold one position often can't keep from questioning the sincerity, the motivation, the intelligence, the education, the hearing and/or the equipment of those on the other side. :roll:

This can lead to flaming in a topic thread on cables, and indeed some audio sites have gone so far, for this reason, as to ban cable topics altogether.

When a policy decision at CAM became necessary, some time back, the feeling of CAM Staff was that an outright ban would be a last resort. The question of cables was a useful one to a hobbyist, and it seemed a shame to deprive CAM users of others' experience and knowledge on the matter. So CAM policy became simply to keep a closer eye on such threads. As with any other topic, a thread would be locked, and sanctions distributed, only when things went off the rails.

That has generated a lot more time on the volunteer job, and a lot more volunteer intervention, than would have been the case had the cable topic been banned altogether. But the occasional thread like this one, in which there hasn't been any specially notable hostility, makes the original policy decision look like a good one.

Well done, folks. Keep up the good work. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:09 am 
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Good summary but there is another significant group that must be considered. This other group consists of all of those with commercial interests in the promotion of foo products, including shills.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:18 am 
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This other group does not fall outside the polarization I set out above.

Audio_Guy wrote:
Good summary but there is another significant group that ... consists of all of those with commercial interests in the promotion of foo products, including shills.


The key point to take away from that long post, above, is not that contributors need to be classified into groups.

It is that cable threads become contentious, and often leave the rails, because the topic degenerates into
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questioning the sincerity, the motivation, the intelligence, the education, the hearing and/or the equipment of those on the other side


@Audio_Guy, your post questions motivation, and thus generates a reminder that you need to stay on topic.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:35 am 
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alladione wrote:
Real Audio Professionals with technical education and that understand electron flow & ohms law - know marketing "whowe" BS hype - its only the small hi end audio folks that believe the silly ness


I hope that Bob Ludwig of Gateway Mastering Studio is not considered as one of the real "Audio Professionals" that you've mentioned. Becuase if he is then your theory of cable silliness will be thrown for a loop.

Here's an excerpt from one of Bob Ludwig's interview with regards to the equipment that he uses in his mastering studio...

Bob Ludwig: There are several pieces of gear I feel are necessary for doing the best mastering and foremost is my monitoring system with the bridged Cello Performance Mark II amplifiers feeding my custom 790 lb. Eggleston Works Ivy speakers, serials #1 and #2 which have 23 drivers in each cabinet. They both sit on concrete pedestals that are isolated from the studio's floating floor. They are driven through Transparent Audio's best Opus MM2 speaker cable.

You might find the next piece of gear odd, but it really makes a difference. It is our 2 refrigerator-size batteries that power the studios. We create our own 60Hz. The power is super clean. The bridged Cello amps can put out 4000 Watt peaks, but you can put your ear right up to the Eggleston Works' Esotar tweeter and it is really silent, no noise. Next would be my Pyramix digital workstation. It sounds transparent, it can do both PCM 382kHz/32-bit as well as DSD and it's ability to have Source-Destination editing makes editing very quick and efficient. It is a joy to work on this system.

If I remember correctly the Transparent Opus MM2 cables are very expensive especially the speaker cables which will run you around US$30,000/pair for 10 Ft. run. And the EgglestonWorks' Ivy Signature SE Reference Series loudspeakers is around US$155,250/pair.

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/egglestonworks-wows#6OxaT0YjXEhGkCIV.99

More on the interview here http://www.mixonline.com/news/profiles/bob-ludwig/373415 and here http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/ludwig.htm

Gateway Mastering Studio http://www.gatewaymastering.com/


Last edited by tube54 on Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:40 am 
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Toby wrote:
Over 33 pages, this thread has provided good examples of the two main positions on the issue of cables, and the two subgroups within each.

The main positions :

A) They make a difference.
B) They don't make a difference.

The subgroups:

A1) They should make a difference but I haven't tried them.
A2) They make a difference and I've tried them and heard it.

B1) Opposite of A1.
B2) Opposite of A2.

A very human aspect of the polarization on this issue is that those who hold one position often can't keep from questioning the sincerity, the motivation, the intelligence, the education, the hearing and/or the equipment of those on the other side. :roll:

This can lead to flaming in a topic thread on cables, and indeed some audio sites have gone so far, for this reason, as to ban cable topics altogether.

When a policy decision at CAM became necessary, some time back, the feeling of CAM Staff was that an outright ban would be a last resort. The question of cables was a useful one to a hobbyist, and it seemed a shame to deprive CAM users of others' experience and knowledge on the matter. So CAM policy became simply to keep a closer eye on such threads. As with any other topic, a thread would be locked, and sanctions distributed, only when things went off the rails.

That has generated a lot more time on the volunteer job, and a lot more volunteer intervention, than would have been the case had the cable topic been banned altogether. But the occasional thread like this one, in which there hasn't been any specially notable hostility, makes the original policy decision look like a good one.

Well done, folks. Keep up the good work. :)


Wow. This over-analyzing thing with certain topics of the audiophile hobby gets me away from how it used to be. Just setting up your music and enjoying it. It has become SO complicated that we split hairs in quarters now.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:48 am 
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Wow. This over-analyzing thing with certain topics of the audiophile hobby gets me away from how it used to be. Just setting up your music and enjoying it. It has become SO complicated that we split hairs in quarters now.[/quote]

My advice to you is to buy the best equipment and cables that you can afford and enjoy the music. Never mind about what others have said as at the end of the day it's all about your preference and taste.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:49 am 
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Quote:
They make a big difference. But you won't find an answer here, or really anywhere. All you will get is a war underneath your post.

Just try one, and if you like it keep it. If you don't then you will have more money in your pocket for more gear, or some albums, or a nice steak dinner. Or maybe Jays tickets for next year :)


+1


.....and if you don't like it, you can re-sell on CAM, so you really aren't risking too much.....especially if you choose ones with a good reputation, such as those made by Steve at Audio Sensibility, or by Shunyata, etc.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:59 am 
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Unless you components are $10k apiece they are a waste of money for the amount of return in effiencecy and noticeable difference in the sound.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:27 am 
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alboettcher wrote:
Unless you components are $10k apiece they are a waste of money for the amount of return in effiencecy and noticeable difference in the sound.


Certainly not in my experience. I have less than $10K invested in my entire system, although at full retail it is probably worth more than that, and the effects of decent power cables are very audible and the cumulative effect of 3 decent cables in the system (power conditioner, phono pre and phono stage) are certainly close to the equivalent of a full component upgrade IMO.

I've experimented with about 6-8 commercial offerings up to around the $500 price point and the power cables I use are DIY and I have about $80-$85 into them although they are admittedly at least 7-8 years old and might be a bit more costly to construct now.

As always in audio YMMV.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:35 am 
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Bandy wrote:
TwentyKHzPlus wrote:
Is it heresy to suggest that anyone who cannot hear the benefits of properly designed and manufactured power cables don't have systems good enough to reveal the differences; or, who have damaged hearing for a variety of reasons; or, have never chosen a truly competent cable to test; or, who are so hung up with their ideas of truth that they aren't willing to entertain a new idea; or, who can't bear the thought of ridicule when they can't scientifically provide a cogent explanation for their pricey purchase; or, who are afraid of the wife disapproval factor; or, who can't fathom that their scientific explanations are not explanations at all, nor scientific at all. The saying "a little knowledge is dangerous" would have to search far and wide to find a topic that proved the value of this common sense saying more effectively. Remember the fox who said the grapes he could not reach were probably sour anyways. Yes, hearing is psychological, but not nearly as psychological as an opinionated audiophile. Making up your mind when you don't have all the facts is a bad idea, especially when you don't know how to recognize the pertinent facts to begin with. Anyone who has studied electronics should recognize that Ohm's Law does not describe everything electrical - it's just the beginning. If you can't get past Ohm's Law you haven't gotten very far and you need to recognize that fact. People who simply say give it a try and a fair chance are open minded. The rest are creating a lot of dust following the ever mind numbing illusions of the preverbal circular argument. If you don't know what a circular argument is, I would strongly recommend you put forth your best effort as it could change every aspect of your life for the better, forever. Give it a shot.

I can say in all honesty that I have been auditioning and buying Shunyata power cables for almost a decade and, without fail, have found significant improvement to my system's sound every single time I swapped in every cable. I'm not willing to pay any more than I have to to achieve the sound I desire. As my mother often said: "I'm Scotch, and I'm not going to pay a penny more than is necessary"; neither am I going to waste my time engaging in closed minded thought, other than to debunk it. The negative claims regarding power cables use the same (lack of) logic as the claims that MP3 technology is as good as CD and vinyl. We can't be held back by those who can't see the light, as it were. The idea is to soar, not be afraid to look to the sky. Cheers!


Hi, TwentyKHzPlus, I am sorry, I can't hear you. Due to my age, anything above 16kHz is just silence to me. :-)

"Anyone who has studied electronics should recognize that Ohm's Law does not describe everything electrical"

Actually, Ohm's Law does describe "everything" electrical. Perhaps what you meant to say is that it does not describe anything non-electrical? Like emotions, feelings, beliefs?

"The negative claims regarding power cables use the same (lack of) logic as the claims that MP3 technology is as good as CD and vinyl."

On the contrary, I believe most folks that are sceptical about benefits of power cables (like me) have at least elemental knowledge of electronics. (or university degree in electronics) :-)
Comparing power cables to MP3s is illogical at best, since we can quantify the losses in MP3 compression unlike the "benefits" of power cables.

"The idea is to soar, not be afraid to look to the sky. Cheers!" Perhaps your idea.

I prefer "Better audio through technology". Cheers.


That's the funny part, if you speak with any individual who is a professional in the field or who has an electrical background an overwhelming percentage of them do not believe in cables. Beyond the need to have adequate specifications of course. Unless they have a clear bias.
Even speaking from my own personal experience the more I have learned about electronics and the way things work the more I realize how the whole "cables having a sound"doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Especially power cables! If we are talking tonearm leads, maybe…


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:27 am 
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Wow. Just. Wow.

Do you guys realize that every post (sorry mods for my post here) has to be screened by a mod? Have we not beat this to death (insert dead horse pic here)......this is a topic where your specific argument is bound NOT to influence the other guy; his/her mind appears to be made up.

Personally, I prefer to listen to my music rather than talk about it :)

With all this said, I have read all 30-odd pages and learned a little...but not much.

It's sunny outside; I'm going out and wash the car....Y'all have a GREAT weekend!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Toby
I like your analysis!
My 2 cents for the original poster....Just try them out.
I believe that all the opinions though heartfelt and trying to help just prove one thing...that one needs to be subjective about a subjective topic.
Everybody hears or wants to hear differently.
My experience has shown to me that the combination of components can not be predicted....it takes experimentation.
I have cheap RCA's that make my Silver Streak I/C's sound better than WBT's !...but not on other cables...it is the opposite.
Cables...connectors...amps...they all have measured characteristics...but the ear and hearing is more complex.
I have proven to myself that various cables within a system do make a difference although many argue that the cheapest cable one can buy is the same....I seriously doubt they have done good tests....they say that only the few measured characteristics like inductance, capacitance and resistance are the only factors.
Experiment and prove to yourself that there is more to equipment matching than that....I think it is actually an interesting part of the hobby.
Good Luck


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:39 pm 
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No fence to anyone but the OP asked the question 2 years ago!!! He may be dead for all we know...

If it makes any difference, I recently bought 2 Shenyata Diamondbacks and really like them. Not too expensive, matches well with my Anthem 225. I also have one on my Rogue Audio Tempest III but never tried the stock with it. After 30 years in this hobby, they are the only power cables I ever bought...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, ...


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