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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:30 am 
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Looking to replace my old NAD 523 carousel which has no digital outputs. I would like to use my Benchmark DAC so will any old/used player with digital output suffice? Why would the transport mechanism affect the sound?

I usually stream music from my PC in another room but I sometimes will still use the old CD player for convenience. I don't want to spend more than $200 and changer would be great but not necessary. Any suggestions?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:01 am 
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The best working changer I have owned was a Nakamchi MB-8. I used it for years with no issues. Always had problems with the carousel types like Sony and Technics.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:24 am 
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PERRLA wrote:
Looking to replace my old NAD 523 carousel which has no digital outputs. I would like to use my Benchmark DAC so will any old/used player with digital output suffice? Why would the transport mechanism affect the sound?

I usually stream music from my PC in another room but I sometimes will still use the old CD player for convenience. I don't want to spend more than $200 and changer would be great but not necessary. Any suggestions?

Thanks.


In this day and age all good DACs like the Benchmark will reclock the incoming data stream. This means that what ever source you choose will not matter as much as it did in years past. A cheap transport may have electrical noise so I suggest you get a used DVD player with a toslink output and use that. Perfect electrical isolation! If you really need a changer I also use a Nak and it works very well for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:51 am 
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One of the best transports around is the Esoteric P-10, like this one (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649356851-esoteric-p10-cd-transport/) although, at $500, it's well above your budget. The VRDS drive is second to none.

This Toshiba, which is within your budget, although a DVD player, has a very solid audio section.

Toshiba SD-9100 $120: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649323279-toshiba-sd9100-dvd-video-player-cd-transport/

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:09 am 
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Just get any properly functioning CD player or transport that has a S/PDIF output or, if you prefer, a Toslink output (though optical is inferior in fidelity to both AES and S/PDIF).

AES/EBU output is preferred, but I believe the Benchmark (unless it's an old one) doesn't have an AES input.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:13 am 
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dr.joe wrote:
Just get any properly functioning CD player or transport that has a S/PDIF output or, if you prefer, a Toslink output (though optical is inferior in fidelity to both AES and S/PDIF).

AES/EBU output is preferred, but I believe the Benchmark (unless it's an old one) doesn't have an AES input.


Dr. Joe, please advise in which way the fidelity of the bit stream is compromised when one uses Toslink.
Thanks

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:14 am 
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http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Quote:
4. S/PDIF conversion
The S/PDIF interface was created by Sony/Philips to simplify the interconnect between digital audio devices. The deficiency in this interface is that it embeds the serial clock in the serial data-stream in order to achieve one-signal cabling. A superior interface would have included both a clock and a data signal, but we don't have this, so we live with S/PDIF. The S/PDIF interface must encode the data and clock into a single signal and then at the destination recover the clock(s) from the data-stream. The process of recovering the clocks can introduce new jitter since there is usually a PLL involved.


Quote:
5. Logic buffering
The digital audio data must make its way through the system over wires/traces and sometimes through buffers, such as the buffer to drive the S/PDIF cable. Each of these buffers has finite reaction times and imprecise detection of changing signal levels. What this means is that even though the signal may not have much jitter coming into the buffer, it may exit with additional jitter. This jitter is a result of the speed of the device, thermal effects on the silicon die, power delivery on the die and even transmission-line effects.


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7. Toslink optical conversion
Optical conversion adds another layer of buffering on both the transmitting and receiving ends of the S/PDIF interface. This additional layer in itself adds jitter, regardless of whether it is optical or not because of (5). However due to its complexity, the optical interface adds more jitter than a simple logic buffer. For that reason, it has higher jitter/lower performance than a well-designed S/PDIF coax interface.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:23 am 
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"This Toshiba, which is within your budget, although a DVD player, has a very solid audio section.

Toshiba SD-9100 $120: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... transport/"



By this you mean that the internal DAC is considered good vs my Benchmark? A couple of people have mentioned getting a DVD player instead of CD. Why is this type of transport "quieter" or better?





"Just get any properly functioning CD player or transport that has a S/PDIF output or, if you prefer, a Toslink output (though optical is inferior in fidelity to both AES and S/PDIF).

AES/EBU output is preferred, but I believe the Benchmark (unless it's an old one) doesn't have an AES input"



The Benchmark has all three types of inputs plus USB. I'm currently using the Toslink from an Audioengine D2 to stream from my computer. There is no AES or S/PDIF outputs on the D2 so I couldn't verify any sound differences. A CD/DVD player with both S/PDIF and Toslink would be great for comparison.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:40 pm 
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PERRLA wrote:
"This Toshiba, which is within your budget, although a DVD player, has a very solid audio section.

Toshiba SD-9100 $120: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... transport/"

By this you mean that the internal DAC is considered good vs my Benchmark? A couple of people have mentioned getting a DVD player instead of CD. Why is this type of transport "quieter" or better?

No, you'll be by-passing the DAC. Your Benchmark will be better.

It's not "better". Since you're by-passing the DAC, almost any spinner will suffice.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:54 pm 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Quote:
4. S/PDIF conversion
The S/PDIF interface was created by Sony/Philips to simplify the interconnect between digital audio devices. The deficiency in this interface is that it embeds the serial clock in the serial data-stream in order to achieve one-signal cabling. A superior interface would have included both a clock and a data signal, but we don't have this, so we live with S/PDIF. The S/PDIF interface must encode the data and clock into a single signal and then at the destination recover the clock(s) from the data-stream. The process of recovering the clocks can introduce new jitter since there is usually a PLL involved.


Quote:
5. Logic buffering
The digital audio data must make its way through the system over wires/traces and sometimes through buffers, such as the buffer to drive the S/PDIF cable. Each of these buffers has finite reaction times and imprecise detection of changing signal levels. What this means is that even though the signal may not have much jitter coming into the buffer, it may exit with additional jitter. This jitter is a result of the speed of the device, thermal effects on the silicon die, power delivery on the die and even transmission-line effects.


Quote:
7. Toslink optical conversion
Optical conversion adds another layer of buffering on both the transmitting and receiving ends of the S/PDIF interface. This additional layer in itself adds jitter, regardless of whether it is optical or not because of (5). However due to its complexity, the optical interface adds more jitter than a simple logic buffer. For that reason, it has higher jitter/lower performance than a well-designed S/PDIF coax interface.


Each of these points is no longer valid now that any good DAC will reclock the data stream, definitely a non issue with the Benchmark DAC.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:50 pm 
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With SPDIF and TOSLINK, the data is reclocked via PLL (Phase Lock Loops) at the DAC end. Will say PLL reclocking is better now than what it was in the past. HOWEVER, it can only deal with the data it has been given. With a poorly implemented SPDIF/TOSLINK that may have a high jitter rate, the PLL reclocker may not be able to mitigate jitter to the point where it is not audible. Classic case of you cannot polish a turd! Both transmit and receive of data is equally as important.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:36 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
With SPDIF and TOSLINK, the data is reclocked via PLL (Phase Lock Loops) at the DAC end. Will say PLL reclocking is better now than what it was in the past. HOWEVER, it can only deal with the data it has been given. With a poorly implemented SPDIF/TOSLINK that may have a high jitter rate, the PLL reclocker may not be able to mitigate jitter to the point where it is not audible. Classic case of you cannot polish a turd! Both transmit and receive of data is equally as important.


You've brought up two points: jitter and data integrity. Both of these are no longer a concern in home audio as long as the equipment is used as intended and the devices are not broken.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:34 am 
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Audio_Guy wrote:
You've brought up two points: jitter and data integrity. Both of these are no longer a concern in home audio as long as the equipment is used as intended and the devices are not broken.


A device does not have to be broken to introduce audible jitter. And for the record, although many of todays DAC’s do an excellent job at mitigating jitter, none are able to recover lost data. So data integrity should still be of a concern.

Not all DAC’s employ the same level of jitter reduction. And….not all digital interfaces (SPDIF, USB, TOSLINK, etc) will be processed to the same effect within a single DAC.

The below measurements taken from the TEAC UD-501 DAC clearly shows the differences between TOSLINK vs USB using the same source (a computer built around the Gigabyte Z170 motherboard). It also demonstrates how important the source is within the digital chain with the Chromecast showing higher jitter than the computer…again using the same DAC. Although I do not own this Gigabyte MB, I do own the UD-501 DAC and can honestly say there is an audible difference between USB and TOSLINK coming from the same computer.

Throwing subjective opinions aside, there are many objective reviews on the web that demonstrate jitter should still be a concern with today’s modern DAC’s. And that the digital source is just as important. Garbage in, garbage out.

To the OP, there is no benefit from using a DVD player VS a CDP or CD Transport outside the fact that it can play DVD’s. You have an excellent DAC so given your budget and intended use, I would focus more on the integrity of the unit. The Toshiba mentioned above would be a compatible candidate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:19 am 
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PERRLA wrote:
Looking to replace my old NAD 523 carousel which has no digital outputs. I would like to use my Benchmark DAC so will any old/used player with digital output suffice? Why would the transport mechanism affect the sound?

I usually stream music from my PC in another room but I sometimes will still use the old CD player for convenience. I don't want to spend more than $200 and changer would be great but not necessary. Any suggestions?

Thanks.


I have a Sony SCD-CE595 CD Changer with Toslink output - sent you a PM.


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