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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:06 pm 
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I recently purchased a used Oppo 105D.
I have been Comparing SACD -> DSD Files. CD -> WAV -> High Res FLAC Files
Why is it that SACD Sounds much different (way better) than the same album in DSD File format?
Same thing for a CD compared to the same album in WAV File and High Res Flac File Format. Should it not sound the same
or even close? I actually find the physical CD to sound better than the Flac Files? I have found this with a number of different
equipment... Dacs/Streamers etc... Anyone know whats going?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:03 pm 
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With the omission of moving mechanical components, I would assume, and have experienced, only the opposite result.

I would suggest that if you're using a computer or network player that it is on the playback software. If using the Oppo as a network player, same but for (or against, in this case) the playback software built in.

If you are using a computer or external device as a player for these files, then the digital cable, power supplies and aforementioned software would all be suspect. Using the drive will also present a shorter signal path than an external player. If the Oppo is the player in both cases are the files truly from masters or different sources than the SACDs and CDs? That may be your answer. Very peculiar either way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:48 pm 
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You are "assuming" that the recordings you are comparing are all mastered the same and not remastered for each format, as they usually are. Even the files on the same disc, but on different layers, are rarely identical in terms of mastering, so it is king of normal that you might prefer one to the other.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Interesting... thanks for the replys

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:09 pm 
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http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2 ... io-quality

Check out these. There are more online with different music selections also.

I found that I certainly cannot get 100% on these on the stereo, and that some tracks I prefer in lower resolution, consistently.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Your question relates to a recent chain of events I experienced lately. I bought a newly remastered version of my favourite Bach works, namely the 4 Orchestral Suites by Karl Richter conducting the Munich Bach Orchestra. I have a Bryston BDP-2 and ripped a copy to a HDD. It was a 3 CD set and I had a ton of trouble releasing one of the CD's from the clasps holding it. To make a long story short, I had experienced glitches using this particular HDD, which was a Back-Up drive and decided to try an Expansion drive instead. When I tried to rip the same works to the newer drive the troublesome CD split and was rendered useless. Pause to regain composure. Then came across a digital download offered by ProStudioMasters for $20; the original 3-CD set was $35. The download was available in 24/192 format; 16/44 was $5 less. This was my first download purchase and decided to go all the way.

As all BDP-2 owners would eventually notice, when rips are playing, the playback parameters are displayed instantaneously; typically the flashing numbers fall between the low 600's and the low 1200's, 44100 being the ceiling, as I understand it. Such was the case of the ripped CD's, which, incidentally sounded better than both copies of the vinyl I possess, and a budget CD, all from the same label. As this was my first foray into downloads, I didn't really know what to expect, but reasonably hoped for an even better result because of the higher specs. The downloaded version turned out to be slightly worse sounding than the CD rip! Eventually, after wondering if I had technical downloading problems, however slight, I paged down to check the real time playback specs and boy was I surprised! The numbers were flashing between 5300 and 5700 with a ceiling of 192000! Some day I might download the "lesser" spec'd version, but for now, I'm at a loss to explain these particular numbers. For now, all I can say is that you really can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. As of late, much has been made of avoiding oversampling. I'm hesitant to press the button on my BDA-3.

So, I just now went and listened to the second movement of the first suite to revisit my previous conclusions. The rip plays louder making level matching necessary. Once sorted, the downloaded version may have had a tiny speck of added inner detail on the bassoon and it seemed to portray an illusion of "walking" (mood not imaging) detail. Oversampling seemed to have no aural effect with either version; however, the LED for oversampling always remained green throughout the piece, whereas it would turn yellow with a red halo for the rip version. My first impressions were made using my Sonic Frontiers Line 3, but its power supply bit the dust and this test was through my Bryston BP-6, a great, but not as great pre-amp. The Sonic is a king of inner detail and so the added volume of the rip may have carried the day. My Maggie 1.7i's are likely better broken in now than before. All in all, I can happily listen to both versions with the greatest of pleasure. I'm saving up to have the Line 3 completely tricked out by Chris Johnson later this summer, so will try again once I take full measure of the upgrades.

My SACD version of Breezin' by George Benson is not the same as the CD version. There are things missing or added on both, compared to the other. I think it's to be expected when works are essentially re-mastered, which re-formatting essentially is. You may have a better quality CD player than streamer. I think most people think there is a much lower cut-off for value for streaming products as everything is inherently digital, but my overall read of comments on such matters suggests that the opposite is true. Personally, I found the $172 Cardas USB cable I installed between my BDP-2 and BOT to produce a jaw-dropping improvement. The $140 AudioQuest USB cable between the BDP-2 and the HDD (Cardas didn't have that connector available) sounded exactly the same as the cable that came with the HDD. The next one up is $800+; I would be willing to take one home to audition, in the unlikely event that that option would become available. I would rather try to talk George Cardas into making me an experimental one-off, on if-you-make-it-I will-pay-for-it terms.

As with everything in life, just when you think you have the lay of the land, every so often you step in a hole that you didn't see. There is no stedfast rule that says all examples of one format have to be better than the same version of a supposedly inferior format. I'm going to have to spend $3000+ on a new cartridge to make the vinyl version of the above mentioned Bach works sound better than the digital version. The purchase, overall, will be completely worthwhile, but there will definitely be disappointments. I have lots of poorly made LP's that likely can not be resurrected, but I am willing to try. Didn't you just land yourself a VPI TNT? I have one with an SME V arm and a Sumiko Blue Point that tends to dull and lifeless. I want to upgrade my SF Phono 1 to SE status and get a Cardas Heart Silver. I'm finalizing a new design for a stand made from stacked MDF which will weigh a few hundred pounds. It will be comprised of multiple units that can be disassembled for easy moving. I've already designed a platform that allows me to assemble the TT by myself in less than 2 minutes right out of the packaging. I've learned that every time I make a mistake, I usually make an important discovery that takes me forward to a better place. Right now, I'm hoping for a cheap whopper. You, on the other hand, without realizing it, may have just inadvertently upped your game. Cheers!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:21 am 
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i agree with you kawi , i notice the same thing and my logical reflexion / answer about this observation is that a CD and a cd player are kind of hardware stuff and cannot degrade like a files can , every computer react or will sound differently due to quality consistancy of every component Inside the computer and also due to different software to rip cd , anyway long story short i have tried many digital playback systems over the year BUT every time i throw a cd in the player it remind me that a good recording CD/ SACD is hard to beat for now, unless you use hypersophisticated computer Equipment and software to rip cd and when i say hypersophisticated it has nothing to do with regular computer nor ripping software ,

just my toughts ...... :roll:

just try it


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:33 am 
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It's all about the master. You cannot compare unless they are exactly the same file on SACD/CD and computer file. Completely pointless to generalize. We did a hi-res streaming night last night and in preparation we listened to all the hi-res versions of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Guess what, the CD version from 1997 sounds night and day better than any of the hi-res versions. The newest Mobile Fidelity one is so bloated in the bass and rolled off on top that it's an abomination. If the files are the exact same, the differences between a good CD player and any computer are negligible, at most a subtle "flavour". Changing anything else in your system will be a magnitude more difference. If you want to test for sure, rip the file, then have your wife play the file and the CD in random switches 10 times without you knowing (of course the volume must be exactly matched). See if you can get more than 50% right... Computers aren't some panacea. The old chain of speakers, amps, even cables is exponentially more important. To give you just one more example, we recently went to a customers house with about 50k of great gear because he wasn't happy with the sound. Turns out his speakers in room are 8dB down from 50-80Hz. He was talking about adding a new DAC. It's ludicrous. Unless you're focusing on the main problem first, these infinitesimal digital differences are like debating whether Bridgestones or Michelins are better when your engine is only firing on 3 cylinders.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:58 am 
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alberg47 wrote:
....unless you use hypersophisticated computer Equipment and software to rip cd and when i say hypersophisticated it has nothing to do with regular computer nor ripping software..


What "hypersophisticated" computer equipment do you think that music engineers&producers use to record, mix & master music? Do they use supercomputers or regular Mac and PC desktops like the rest of us? Their systems will be the same as everyone elses, using consumer grade CPUs/memory/storage etc. The software they use is designed to run on regular Macs and PCs, and will run on every other desktop PC out there. Sure, some of the interface hardware might be specialized and the software complex and expensive but it runs on regular consumer hardware. So if it doesn't need any special hardware to create to the satisfaction of the engineer, why would playback require this?

By "hypersophisticated" do you mean "any modern computer"? Contrary to popular belief, computer audio playback doesn't require anything special from the hardware. Bryston even has a digital media player based on the lowly Raspberry Pi.

All things being equal, the computer playback should be better as it avoids the problems with the mechanical systems that has to be engineered around with spinning physical media. How much of this will noticed will always be up for debate. Hence this thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:13 am 
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Probably something akin to a lynx L22 or similar and Steinburgs' Wavelab or Magix' Samplitude. To name some pretty common ones.T :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:20 am 
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This question is for Kawihornet. I was thinking of buying an oppo 105d when the prices come down a bit, but since you have one already, how do you find the overall sound. I have read in some forums that with certain equipment the 105 can be on the bright side, I can deal with brightness with an equalizer ( I know, it's audiophile sacrilage but it works for me) but I would prefer less equipment in the chain. This is also why I'm thinking of getting the oppo, to remove the dac and it's associated cabling from the equation. Less equipment, less corruption of sound, less expense.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:35 pm 
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wtf22 wrote:
This question is for Kawihornet. I was thinking of buying an oppo 105d when the prices come down a bit, but since you have one already, how do you find the overall sound. I have read in some forums that with certain equipment the 105 can be on the bright side, I can deal with brightness with an equalizer ( I know, it's audiophile sacrilage but it works for me) but I would prefer less equipment in the chain. This is also why I'm thinking of getting the oppo, to remove the dac and it's associated cabling from the equation. Less equipment, less corruption of sound, less expense.


So Far...It Sounds really really good... For a Blueray player lol... A CD/SACD Player of equal value I believe would sound better tho I have not had the chance to do an A/B comparison yet.... I am very surprised at how good Tidal sounds through it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Thx for sharing your opinion on the oppo's performance. The 105 das been on my buy list for a long time but the high price keeps me away. Now that the new units are coming or here already I can look more seriously at getting one.
I'm a believer in using less components to achieve a good sound, but they must be high quality of course. Being frugal (cheapskate) helps. When I buy cd's I do they same thing by trying to get an artist's greatest hits rather than multiple cd's with one or two good songs.
Thx again


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