Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:55 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:39 am
Posts: 3
Location: Langley, BC, CA
First off I'm new to the home stereo world ,I'm trying to build a block rocking stereo for my shop on a budget . I was told that this amp is a beast (denon avr-5600) and although the sound quality is spectacular, it really doesn't seem to have the jam to move my two serving Vega at-15 towers . My question is, does anyone on this site have this amp?have tried messing with the channel settings to bring the volume up, but it decreases the amount of total volume that you can adjust the master volume knob . And if not this amp , what would b a good match for the cerwin vega at-15s?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:46 pm
Posts: 391
Location: Markham, ON, CA
AT-15s are very power-hungry. AVR receivers are designed to drive multiple channels at a shared wattage. In 2-channel mode the 5600 drives 140 per side; the AT-15s would do better with 200 a side...at a minimum. Sunfire and Carver are two great (and relatively inexpensive) amps for AT-15s. Look for something with a minimum of 200 watts per-side into 8 ohms. If I remember correctly, the AT15 is a 4-ohm speaker...less resistance requires greater power....like 400 per side into 4 ohms.

I drive my CV D7s with a Denon 2200 which is only 90watts per side into 8ohms......for me, bi-wired with a pair of JBL S38s, I have more than enough volume. But I don't have the same tastes as you... I play in the 60 db range....not 100 plus.

So, simply speaking, asking a home theatre receiver to drive a pair of power-hungry speakers at high, continuous volume will be asking too much; you may well overheat the receiver before you rupture your ear drums.

Again, the CV guys (head bangers) are partial to Carver and Sunfire. Stay away from the chinese stuff (berhlinger etc) as they are poor quality. I have CVs in both my HT/2 channel and dedicated 2-channel systems. I like the sound, but they have also been significantly modded and have additional amplification. Think JBL 4130 and my HEDs will equate. I drive my small system with a Yamaha DS|P-2070 and Carver CM-1090 and I like the sound and control.

Good luck in your quest for the perfect (loud) sound and I hope you have understanding neighbors! :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:39 am
Posts: 3
Location: Langley, BC, CA
Thanks for the advice and the laugh ! I'm picking up a qsc power amp 1.4 (1400watts) today !???
I'm hoping this will force my Neighbour that collects dogs and cats to look for a new residence, likely she will not call the cops on me because the SPCA would rade her house :) . My question now is do I keep the denon as a eq to send signal to this new amp ? Or should I recoup funds and start looking for a equalizer ? (Again I know nothing about this stuff so any enlightenment would be great.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 7:33 am
Posts: 123
Location: Queen Charlotte, BC, CA
Good luck with the QSC. You should be able to connect it to the Pre-Out jacks on the back of your Denon, and use your Denon as a pre-amp, however you might have to find cables that convert from RCA plugs on the Denon to balanced plugs or 1/4 phone plugs on the QSC. "Should", because I do not have this equipment and could not find any really clear information on line.

Depending on the budget limits, the cheapest domestic amps are Emotivas. I have some Axiom speakers with similar 4 ohm requirements (although I probably do not play them as loud) and I am happily using a couple Emotiva mono block amps. Other than that you could try looking for some big domestic amps, such as Adcom's, second hand. Make sure that they are rated for 4 ohms.

https://summit-hi-fi.myshopify.com/collections/amplifiers

By way of commercial amps, I tried a Crown XLS2500 and was never quite happy with the quality of sound, although other people swear by them.
Hope that this less than specific information is helpful.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:35 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Hey Cerwin Vega Speakers are generally very high db . Usually 102db to 1 watt very efficent speakers that can crank.AV audio,unless very powerful cannot drive these speakers properly.In my opinion AT-15 VEGAS ARE BETTER THAN THE HIGHLY TOTED D9S.
I drove my at15s on a marantz model 15 amp which is only 75 watts per channel,,clean power is where its at...buying a 1400 watt amp doesnt mean its clean,,,maybe powerful,but will it sound good..as it is Cerwin Vegas get a bad rap for being un-audiophile speakers...ohh the ignorance,or should i say the uneducated..i currently have 2 sets 417r which are extremely rare,and i drive them with my 2238 marantz sound gorgeous ,,.the bottom line is good clean power,,,,good oxygen free 14-16 gauge speaker wire,with good components and your off and running...enjoy enjoy ..its all about the music music music...not how loud but os the presence of the sound,


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:49 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Tonytone wrote:
Thanks for the advice and the laugh ! I'm picking up a qsc power amp 1.4 (1400watts) today !???
I'm hoping this will force my Neighbour that collects dogs and cats to look for a new residence, likely she will not call the cops on me because the SPCA would rade her house :) . My question now is do I keep the denon as a eq to send signal to this new amp ? Or should I recoup funds and start looking for a equalizer ? (Again I know nothing about this stuff so any enlightenment would be great.


on paper, that amp should do fine and get those babies moving some serious air.

I don't have any experience with that particular amp myself, but I've heard the name thrown around a few times can't say I recall reading about any regrets.

brownslane wrote:
AT-15s are very power-hungry. AVR receivers are designed to drive multiple channels at a shared wattage. In 2-channel mode the 5600 drives 140 per side; the AT-15s would do better with 200 a side...at a minimum. Sunfire and Carver are two great (and relatively inexpensive) amps for AT-15s. Look for something with a minimum of 200 watts per-side into 8 ohms. If I remember correctly, the AT15 is a 4-ohm speaker...less resistance requires greater power....like 400 per side into 4 ohms.

I drive my CV D7s with a Denon 2200 which is only 90watts per side into 8ohms......for me, bi-wired with a pair of JBL S38s, I have more than enough volume. But I don't have the same tastes as you... I play in the 60 db range....not 100 plus.

So, simply speaking, asking a home theatre receiver to drive a pair of power-hungry speakers at high, continuous volume will be asking too much; you may well overheat the receiver before you rupture your ear drums.

Again, the CV guys (head bangers) are partial to Carver and Sunfire. Stay away from the chinese stuff (berhlinger etc) as they are poor quality. I have CVs in both my HT/2 channel and dedicated 2-channel systems. I like the sound, but they have also been significantly modded and have additional amplification. Think JBL 4130 and my HEDs will equate. I drive my small system with a Yamaha DS|P-2070 and Carver CM-1090 and I like the sound and control.

Good luck in your quest for the perfect (loud) sound and I hope you have understanding neighbors! :)


I'd love to hear what your D-7 setup sounds like!

I simply love my D-7s , and everyone who hears them with my setup is impressed with how easily i can switch from sinatra to marley and not skip a beat.

a-work-of-art wrote:
Hey Cerwin Vega Speakers are generally very high db . Usually 102db to 1 watt very efficent speakers that can crank.AV audio,unless very powerful cannot drive these speakers properly.In my opinion AT-15 VEGAS ARE BETTER THAN THE HIGHLY TOTED D9S.
I drove my at15s on a marantz model 15 amp which is only 75 watts per channel,,clean power is where its at...buying a 1400 watt amp doesnt mean its clean,,,maybe powerful,but will it sound good..as it is Cerwin Vegas get a bad rap for being un-audiophile speakers...ohh the ignorance,or should i say the uneducated..i currently have 2 sets 417r which are extremely rare,and i drive them with my 2238 marantz sound gorgeous ,,.the bottom line is good clean power,,,,good oxygen free 14-16 gauge speaker wire,with good components and your off and running...enjoy enjoy ..its all about the music music music...not how loud but os the presence of the sound,


couldn't agree with you more on the value of a clean clean clean power. It's as if few people have ventured into running lots of clean power into their CVs ad the ones who have an do are always big fans. There's a wonderful combination between a clean setup and very efficient speakers. From what I understand the 417r are late 70s, early 80s gear, just before Gene hit the "digital" bandwagon and came out with the "D" line which was a HUGE success for CV. High quality gear that wasn't exactly cheap either. Nice stuff!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:39 am
Posts: 3
Location: Langley, BC, CA
Ok picked up the qsc 1.4 , the guy I picked the amp off of sold me a carver c2 pre amp and the wired I needed for a extra 120$ , got home hooked it all up .... And bam !!! The at-15 are shacking across the floor , after 2 hours straight the amp wasn't skipping a beat . I'm a happy customer . I would still like to try some diff amps out for shits n gigs


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:23 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18450
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
Tonytone wrote:
Ok picked up the qsc 1.4 , the guy I picked the amp off of sold me a carver c2 pre amp and the wired I needed for a extra 120$ , got home hooked it all up .... And bam !!! The at-15 are shacking across the floor , after 2 hours straight the amp wasn't skipping a beat . I'm a happy customer . I would still like to try some diff amps out for shits n gigs


The C-2 is one of my favorite preamps of all times, mainly because it is the ideal platform for major sonic upgrades at a relatively low cost and very easy to work on to boot. Everything is on 3 small main boards: the preamp board where most of the modifications are done, the power supply board where only the power filtration caps MAY need refreshing and the control board where modifications will bring little to no audible benefits.

Attachment:
C-2 inside.JPG
C-2 inside.JPG [ 454.48 KiB | Viewed 1769 times ]


First step is to replace the op-amps with modern low-noise versions (install sockets to make future upgrades a snap). The 5 NE-5532s with OPA-2209s (parts cost about $25 + sockets) but leave the 4136 quad op-amps alone as substituting them with a modern equivalent will require modifying some of the surrounding circuitry for very little gain. Leave the input pair of transistors in the phono stage alone too (you can actually skip any mods in the phono section if you do not use it). Upgrading all of the carbon composition resistors for lower noise metal film ones in the signal path as well as some of the mylar film capacitors in the signal path will also upgrade the sound substantially. For $100 to $125 in parts, you can have a killer preamp that can more than hold its own with contemporary ones at several X the price.

Besides, even at over 3 decades old, it still looks modern and attractive enough to pass as new.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 1034
Location: Georgetown, ON, CA
Watch out with the op amp upgrades!!!! The power supplies don't have the current to drive those newer better op amps. Consider that Carver used lot's of 4136 op amps (weird pinout, class B types) and TL071 / 81 family that sip power and won't drive a darned thing.

OBI56, I've had to upgrade the power supplies in some products, and in several Carver preamps I can only get away with a couple new op amps, then the rest remain as before. The quad op amps use a special PCB I designed some years ago to mate normal pinout op amps to the weird (and hated) 4136 tone destroyer. There are several Carver power amps that cannot accept newer op amps without special work, or not even with other work performed. Additionally, many Carver amplifiers depend on some characteristics of the op amps used, so you have to either back out of the mod, or deal with bangs and whizzing sounds.

It's best not to play in a Carver without the schematic and a lot of experience. Other products can surprise you in a similar way as the Carver product. Is Carver defective design or cheap in some way? No, it's just highly engineered. Brilliantly so.

The other common issues are equipment that oscillates with the new op amps. You often can't tell without using an oscilloscope. Oscillation may occur inside without appearing on the output terminals. So if you don't have one of these, best to not "op amp roll". Another term I hate. Makes it sound harmless and fun. BTW, best to solder ICs in. Sockets increase capacitance between pins.

-Chris


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:58 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18450
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
anatech wrote:
Watch out with the op amp upgrades!!!! The power supplies don't have the current to drive those newer better op amps. Consider that Carver used lot's of 4136 op amps (weird pinout, class B types) and TL071 / 81 family that sip power and won't drive a darned thing.

OBI56, I've had to upgrade the power supplies in some products, and in several Carver preamps I can only get away with a couple new op amps, then the rest remain as before. The quad op amps use a special PCB I designed some years ago to mate normal pinout op amps to the weird (and hated) 4136 tone destroyer. There are several Carver power amps that cannot accept newer op amps without special work, or not even with other work performed. Additionally, many Carver amplifiers depend on some characteristics of the op amps used, so you have to either back out of the mod, or deal with bangs and whizzing sounds.

It's best not to play in a Carver without the schematic and a lot of experience. Other products can surprise you in a similar way as the Carver product. Is Carver defective design or cheap in some way? No, it's just highly engineered. Brilliantly so.

The other common issues are equipment that oscillates with the new op amps. You often can't tell without using an oscilloscope. Oscillation may occur inside without appearing on the output terminals. So if you don't have one of these, best to not "op amp roll". Another term I hate. Makes it sound harmless and fun. BTW, best to solder ICs in. Sockets increase capacitance between pins.

-Chris


Chris, note that I did mention to leave the 4136s alone, due to your exact concerns. Only the 5532s should be changed and mine was done in the States by an ex-Carver production manager after a lot of experimenting and test measuring on a scope. BTW, the main reason for using sockets was that the replacement OPA-2209s are not available in DIP packages so an adapter board or hard wiring to a socket was the easier route.

My comments apply ONLY to the C-2 and not to any other Carver model, though my C-1 was also seriously upgraded by the same person.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 1034
Location: Georgetown, ON, CA
Hi OBI56,
Yes, when I upgrade them, I have to also upgrade the power supply - even for the couple 5532 op amps. Sometimes the power supply transformer just doesn't have the power needed and the only route for a real upgrade is to replace that transformer and circuit also.

Expensive. Worth it? Could be, depending on what you expect.

My comments are really to provide additional information that some of the happy souls doing service in the TO region don't even consider. Too much of that going on!

-Chris


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:46 pm
Posts: 391
Location: Markham, ON, CA
Tony, I am glad you have reached the potentials of your ATs....there are many who believe the AT15 is a better (tighter sound) speaker than the D9 or DX9. I tend to agree. To again support what TG said, Cerwin Vegas are truly underappreciated by many in the audiophile community. I still have my U123s, which are a three-way 12 inch "bookshelf" speaker...they are half the size of a refrigerator, and weigh over 40 pounds a piece.....how our definition of "bookshelf" has changed!!

I have had a number of CVs in my lifetime, have liked many, loved a couple. Now I just have my U123s (early eighties) I bought when they were new, and my D7s. Both have good, rich sound, great tight bass response, and surprising highs....the tweeter in the D7s are a bit harsh, but that is easily resolved with a gasket under the horn plate..... I like both the best of all the CVs I have tried, but the D7s win out over all of them. Most of the 15 inch CVs are hard to control and respond to amps with high current and damping....the damping is key.

I currently have both my CV systems bi-wired with JBL Studio-series and I LOVE the increased head room! :)

My home is open to anybody who wants to talk speakers, music etc.....I love this hobby!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group