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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:49 am 
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Forbes_2 wrote:
tube54 wrote:
I have the NAD T-765 receiver and I would agree it doesn't do HDMI well. However, I was able to get around with its weakness by connecting the HDMI cable from the bluray player directly into the projector for video and connect the coaxial cable from the bluray player directly to NAD T-765 receiver for sound. BTW, the newer model such as the NAD T-777 has addressed this issue.

Although, they're expensive, but for what it's worth NAD is one of the best sounding receiver out there for the money.

The only problem with that setup is coax wont carry the newest audio formats. Only hdmi.

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Yes! That's correct, however I'm only using 5.1 so this is just fine for my needs.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:04 pm 
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Forbes_2 wrote:
There is not an avr out there anywhere near your budget that will do an RP6 justice in my opinion.

My advice would be to buy a cheap AVR with all the features you need that has front channel preouts.

Then grab a nice integrated amp that has HT bypass to run all your 2 channel audio through.


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I had to do a Google search to find out what HT bypass means. Suppose I get a $499 Yamaha AVR. What integrated in the $1000 to $1500 range would you recommend that has HT bypass?

EDIT: I think I found one: Creek Evolution 50A at $1499


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:57 pm 
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I think I'm going to increase my budget if I can and aim for a Nait 5si with a Marantz avr. Thanks for cluing me in on HT bypass.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:48 am 
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I would stick with your marantz avr choice, then add a phono preamp and a beefy power amp (500wpc territory.) Nix the naim and the gear worthy of other gear logic.

Ideally you would have everything routed through the AVR to take advantage of bass management, speaker crossovers, speaker distances (delay), lipsync, and individual channel levels. The achilles heel of any AVR is its amplifier section. Adding a pro amp for R/L channels eliminates that issue.

A properly dialed in AVR with an outboard amp murders ANY integrated you can find. Categorically. Often for far less money. Once you add subs.....


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:19 am 
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Serenity_now wrote:
I would stick with your marantz avr choice, then add a phono preamp and a beefy power amp (500wpc territory.) Nix the naim and the gear worthy of other gear logic.

Ideally you would have everything routed through the AVR to take advantage of bass management, speaker crossovers, speaker distances (delay), lipsync, and individual channel levels. The achilles heel of any AVR is its amplifier section. Adding a pro amp for R/L channels eliminates that issue.

A properly dialed in AVR with an outboard amp murders ANY integrated you can find. Categorically. Often for far less money. Once you add subs.....


Can you give an example of a power amp you would recommend for this? I don't know of many with that power that come cheap.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:37 am 
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operafan wrote:
Serenity_now wrote:
I would stick with your marantz avr choice, then add a phono preamp and a beefy power amp (500wpc territory.) Nix the naim and the gear worthy of other gear logic.

Ideally you would have everything routed through the AVR to take advantage of bass management, speaker crossovers, speaker distances (delay), lipsync, and individual channel levels. The achilles heel of any AVR is its amplifier section. Adding a pro amp for R/L channels eliminates that issue.

A properly dialed in AVR with an outboard amp murders ANY integrated you can find. Categorically. Often for far less money. Once you add subs.....


Can you give an example of a power amp you would recommend for this? I don't know of many with that power that come cheap.



http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... o-moon-w3/


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:30 am 
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Get your avr first and get setup. Then you can rent a high powered pro option from long and McQuaid and decide with minimal outlay and risk. You can rent 2 -sla2 amps, each bridged at 560w, for a month for 40$. Studio mix quality power. Just get your feet wet before jumping on a regretfully low powered option. I ran 150/300wpc leema outboards. They are outclassed handily by a 500wpc rental.

I am currently saving for a QSC DCA 2422 pro setup to replace the very capable and eye opening rental in my rack right now. It retails for about 1400$ new.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:49 am 
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Serenity_now wrote:
Get your avr first and get setup. Then you can rent a high powered pro option from long and McQuaid and decide with minimal outlay and risk. You can rent 2 -sla2 amps, each bridged at 560w, for a month for 40$. Studio mix quality power. Just get your feet wet before jumping on a regretfully low powered option. I ran 150/300wpc leema outboards. They are outclassed handily by a 500wpc rental.

I am currently saving for a QSC DCA 2422 pro setup to replace the very capable and eye opening rental in my rack right now. It retails for about 1400$ new.


I'm not listening in an amphitheatre. My room is only about 12'x20'. And I generally don't listen at that high a volume. I'll be in an apartment. I understand the idea you're putting forth but 200wpc should be plenty for me if I even need that. Going to mull this over. At least I think I know what avr I want now, the Marantz NR1506 looks good.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:59 am 
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operafan wrote:
Serenity_now wrote:
Get your avr first and get setup. Then you can rent a high powered pro option from long and McQuaid and decide with minimal outlay and risk. You can rent 2 -sla2 amps, each bridged at 560w, for a month for 40$. Studio mix quality power. Just get your feet wet before jumping on a regretfully low powered option. I ran 150/300wpc leema outboards. They are outclassed handily by a 500wpc rental.

I am currently saving for a QSC DCA 2422 pro setup to replace the very capable and eye opening rental in my rack right now. It retails for about 1400$ new.


I'm not listening in an amphitheatre. My room is only about 12'x20'. And I generally don't listen at that high a volume. I'll be in an apartment. I understand the idea you're putting forth but 200wpc should be plenty for me if I even need that. Going to mull this over. At least I think I know what avr I want now, the Marantz NR1506 looks good.


I know that numbers like 500WPC and 1400WPC sound alarmingly high to most people in even smallish rooms Operafan, but you have to remember that power needs increase logarithmically with volume, so doubling the power only represents a couple of notches on the volume control.

Secondly, and most importantly, most AVRs are notoriously over-rated in terms of actual power output. They literally cheat the math in terms of power output figures by adding up how much power each individual channel is capable of putting out running all on its own or with only the 2 main channels running but none of the others at the same time, but if you start running all channels simultaneously, the actual power output nosedives especially when special effects come into play.

EX: 7.1 channel Receiver A is rated at a total of 770W, but digging into the specs you can read that it is rated at 110WPC with only the 2 front channels driven (or 125W for each channel driven alone) and that each of the other channels is rated at 110W driven alone. Try driving all 7 channels at once and you are looking at a true 35 to 40WPC driven simultaneously.

Dedicated HT power amps are usually rated in the same way as conventional 2 channel power amps are with all channels driven at the same time. The first clue is to look at the max power consumption figures for both the AVR and the Power amp. In 1 common example, the 770W (110WPC?) 7.1 channel AVR has a max power consumption of less than 400W, but the dedicated 5 channel power amp suggested by the same manufacturer as an UPGRADE, actually is rated at only 85WPC and consumes over 500W and the 2 channel power amp for the mains is rated at 125WPC draws more at max than either the AVR or the 5 channel amp in question. Now, the difference between the volume levels for a true 85WPC, 110WPC and 125WPC is barely noticeable; less than a single notch of the volume control, but hooking up the 7 outboard channels of dedicated amplification has a truly staggering effect soundwise. You really have to read into the specs carefully to see how the marketing figures don't tell the whole story.

Attachment:
AVR specs.png
AVR specs.png [ 63.57 KiB | Viewed 896 times ]


Note that the above AVR is sold as being a 945W AVR, but its max power consumption is only 330W!!! Note that not all brands are so misleadingly rated.

The suggestion of renting a couple of higher power pro amps is a dirt cheap way of convincing yourself of the multiple benefits of the added power even if you listen at lower volumes and THINK that you will never need them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:17 am 
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I won't quote all that. Yes, I know the specs are misleading. Particularly when they spec the output for 2 channels at 1KHz instead of 20Hz-20KHz. They hardly ever give specs for the full bandwidth with all channels driven. Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions as I already have an excellent phono preamp, the Lehmann Black Cube SE II, and now I realize an integrated with AV bypass will only be a power amp after all. I'm just not sure how much power is really enough. I might be able to get some Xindak monoblocks at 200 wpc which are class A for the first 80 watts or so. Since, as you say, the gains are logarithmic I have doubts of that last 3dB or so being of much benefit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:26 am 
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operafan wrote:
I won't quote all that. Yes, I know the specs are misleading. Particularly when they spec the output for 2 channels at 1KHz instead of 20Hz-20KHz. They hardly ever give specs for the full bandwidth with all channels driven. Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions as I already have an excellent phono preamp, the Lehmann Black Cube SE II, and now I realize an integrated with AV bypass will only be a power amp after all. I'm just not sure how much power is really enough. I might be able to get some Xindak monoblocks at 200 wpc which are class A for the first 80 watts or so. Since, as you say, the gains are logarithmic I have doubts of that last 3dB or so being of much benefit.


That last 3dB can be the difference between running on the ragged edge of distortion and sounding effortless.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:40 am 
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OBI56 wrote:
operafan wrote:
I won't quote all that. Yes, I know the specs are misleading. Particularly when they spec the output for 2 channels at 1KHz instead of 20Hz-20KHz. They hardly ever give specs for the full bandwidth with all channels driven. Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions as I already have an excellent phono preamp, the Lehmann Black Cube SE II, and now I realize an integrated with AV bypass will only be a power amp after all. I'm just not sure how much power is really enough. I might be able to get some Xindak monoblocks at 200 wpc which are class A for the first 80 watts or so. Since, as you say, the gains are logarithmic I have doubts of that last 3dB or so being of much benefit.


That last 3dB can be the difference between running on the ragged edge of distortion and sounding effortless.


For example, you can take a 18-21lb (8-9kg) Sony surround receiver apart. From the years of approximately 1999-2006, whatever the case may be. Lets say this receiver retailed for $400, and had a street price of $299.

Then we look at the transformer inside. We pull out the transformer, and it weighs in at 7lbs, with attached circuit boards for fusing and wiring distribution and a metal bottom bracket for mounting. 7.0 lbs, not 7.9lbs. 7lbs being ~3.2kg.

Then we look up on a chart, the efficiency of such transformer types. We find that this transformer type has relatively little variation in quality and ratings across multiple brands, so the comparison of a bando manufactured transformer and a triad manufactured transformer, both of the same type, will have a similar power rating.

We find the triad transformer design, of similar size.

http://catalog.triadmagnetics.com/Asset/F-259U.pdf

It is rated at 200VA.

Figuring out exactly what that means (VA rating), is tricky and time consuming. After being more familiar with transformers, some basic general rules begin to emerge. Like, pounds to VA rating.

We will take triad's word for it, as they've been doing this for a long time and their transformers are rated for very wide application, with proper overhead in the design, to prevent meltdown of the transformer or sagging of the voltage rails -if under heavy load, the kind that approaches the transformer's limits.

So the similar transformer in the Sony, very roughly as estimates go...can handle a 200VA constant load.

Lets say that for the sake of argument, that the transformer is perfect (none are) and we can get the full 200VA from the transformer.

To translate that 200VA (Volts x Amps) to watts, is....200 watts

Beyond that, the transformer voltages sag, the current is limited and the transformer rapidly begins to heat up. It can handle dynamic draw to some extent, and this allows it to be used in this audio gear, in some ways.

The rating of the Sony receiver, in this case, is 100 watts x 5 channels.

Thus, the result being that the Sony receiver cannot handle full power constant loads, and is very dynamically constricted in transient power, and more..as things get a bit more complex still.

to do a more perfect audiophile rated 100 watts into an 8 ohm load and then lets say 175 watts into a 4 ohm load, one single channel would require this transformer on it's own. And to add, at the 175 watts into 4 ohms, continuous loading....the transformer would overheat.

So, in effect, to make a long story very short, 100 watts into 6 channels, in a more real world audiophile sense, where the potential distortions of the power amplifier and power supplies are reduced to acceptable levels (for audiophiles)..... requires a decent 17-25 lb transformer, for a resultant 40-60lb receiver.

Then you get into the issue of such big fancy receivers being very complex and having so much circuitry and connections that failure over time is a forgone conclusion. How long it takes to get to the given failure point of the given gear is the tricky part to estimate. Besides their general $1500-$4000 prices.

Nowadays, some surround units are using class D amplifiers and switching power supplies, with can bring high powered receiver weight down, in noticeable fashion. The other side of the coin is that those switching power supplies and 'class d' amplifiers, due to how they operate, can be considered to, uhm..not be easily repaired when they fail outside of warranty. (in the general sense, compared to old school designs)

The situation is so complex that it is difficult to get a generalized rating of a piece of gear that is considered a safe bet. The technology changes very fast, in surround modes and whatnot, and one has to decide what they want and are willing to pay for. Reviews may help, but they are not everything.

Basically, buy a well known brand name that uses a well oversized power supply, (heavy transformer), a unit or brand that is known for it's sound quality and raved for that aspect, and has a history of being around and working well for a long time... and hope for the best.

If going audiophile whole hog, then... outboard surround preamps can be the way to go, tied to multi channel power amplifiers of known quality. In that way, one can swap out processors and amps at will when things are upgraded, or decide to go south.

Buying used units with known histories of quality can be quite cost effective. A well decoded older surround sound format, which is going to be on all disks not just a few of the newest, is what tends to give the best long term audio satisfaction. If the outboard processor/decoder/preamp has Dolby True HD and the equivalent DTS formats, then you'll be fine for quite a few years.

You can chase Dolby atmos and the 'latest and greatest' format thing, but the low number of discs available and the complexity of the set up means you're going through hell (cost and complexity) for a very limited enjoyment set-up.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:06 am 
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operafan wrote:
I won't quote all that. Yes, I know the specs are misleading. Particularly when they spec the output for 2 channels at 1KHz instead of 20Hz-20KHz. They hardly ever give specs for the full bandwidth with all channels driven. Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions as I already have an excellent phono preamp, the Lehmann Black Cube SE II, and now I realize an integrated with AV bypass will only be a power amp after all. I'm just not sure how much power is really enough. I might be able to get some Xindak monoblocks at 200 wpc which are class A for the first 80 watts or so. Since, as you say, the gains are logarithmic I have doubts of that last 3dB or so being of much benefit.



Surround sound is tricky to integrate into a seamless whole, if the amplifiers or speakers or any combination thereof are of different manufacture.

I explained this in detail to a friend and pointed out the whole AV bypass option. He decided to keep the HT in a separate system and went to a used Sherbourn 7 channel amplifier for $1k delivered, that comes in at a whopping 105 lbs.

If the intent is to remain audiophile in orientation and also surround...and the xindaks are an option, you might find yourself procuring 5x xindak units.

Considering the size of your room and the total loudness levels possible, I'd not think that anything beyond 200W continuous per channel is necessary, with an approximate 89-90db efficiency speaker choice.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:40 am 
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operafan wrote:
Forbes_2 wrote:
There is not an avr out there anywhere near your budget that will do an RP6 justice in my opinion.

My advice would be to buy a cheap AVR with all the features you need that has front channel preouts.

Then grab a nice integrated amp that has HT bypass to run all your 2 channel audio through.


Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


I had to do a Google search to find out what HT bypass means. Suppose I get a $499 Yamaha AVR. What integrated in the $1000 to $1500 range would you recommend that has HT bypass?

EDIT: I think I found one: Creek Evolution 50A at $1499

I can't give any recommendations in here, as I am a dealer. But feel free to send me a private message if you have any questions. Or if you need any more info on HT bypass.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Obi is right with the last few DB being a big difference. I thought I was swimming with power until I rented a brute. I can't go back now. Up to you. 8)


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